Is "GM Agency" A Thing?

[Maxperson]

It would to me, yes. Given how conversations about this kind of stuff typically go, I don’t expect I’m alone in that.

Absolutely. You are not alone in what you prefer, just as we are not alone. Different strokes for different folks and all that stuff.

 

[billd91]

But this pretense that it’s some sort of “living world” or “consequence” is just smoke and mirrors. It’s a convenient fiction that dms tell themselves so they can sneer down their noses at games that actually actively allow the players to determine these sorts of things.

Well, you're certainly assuming a lot of contempt for alternative styles of play coming from DMs who prefer to keep their campaign environments dynamic in the background while displaying quite a heaping load of such contempt yourself in this badwrongfun screed. I suspect a bit of projection is going on.

 

[hawkeyefan]

First of all, would you know?

Most likely, yeah. I mean, games that have actual procedures for that stuff will involve procedures. The GM will make rolls and what not for the goals of NPCs or factions. In my experience with these kinds of games, they tend to be player facing to the point that such processes are not hidden, but rather are openly discussed.

Second, can you articulate why it would matter?

Well, it depends on the game and the expectations. Overall, I'd prefer anything where more than one outcome is possible to be resolved with a dice roll or similar randomizing element. I don't want the GM to just decide all such elements. I like there to be unexpected outcomes in play.

As a GM myself, I prefer this method, too, because it forces me to deal with results I may not have chosen, and I find that makes for compelling play, and challenges my ability as a GM.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Most likely, yeah. I mean, games that have actual procedures for that stuff will involve procedures. The GM will make rolls and what not for the goals of NPCs or factions. In my experience with these kinds of games, they tend to be player facing to the point that such processes are not hidden, but rather are openly discussed.



Well, it depends on the game and the expectations. Overall, I'd prefer anything where more than one outcome is possible to be resolved with a dice roll or similar randomizing element. I don't want the GM to just decide all such elements. I like there to be unexpected outcomes in play.

As a GM myself, I prefer this method, too, because it forces me to deal with results I may not have chosen, and I find that makes for compelling play, and challenges my ability as a GM.

Yeah, if there's a table for it I'm happy to roll on it.

 

[Reynard]

Most likely, yeah. I mean, games that have actual procedures for that stuff will involve procedures. The GM will make rolls and what not for the goals of NPCs or factions. In my experience with these kinds of games, they tend to be player facing to the point that such processes are not hidden, but rather are openly discussed.

I'm talking mostly about typical D&D play, where the GM does lots of stuff that is invisible to the players.

Well, it depends on the game and the expectations. Overall, I'd prefer anything where more than one outcome is possible to be resolved with a dice roll or similar randomizing element. I don't want the GM to just decide all such elements. I like there to be unexpected outcomes in play.

Again, if this is happening between session, you aren't privy to the process in either case.

As a GM myself, I prefer this method, too, because it forces me to deal with results I may not have chosen, and I find that makes for compelling play, and challenges my ability as a GM.

I, too, like to challenge my own assumptions with random rolls.

However, as noted upthread, this situation is specifically one of the kind I use if I am going to prep: here is the situation and the people and locations involved, and this is what is likely to happen if the PCs do not get involved. I do this to make improvising once the PCs do get involved easier and more consistent. But that means if the PCs do not get involved and haven't changed the larger context in a way that impacts this situaton, it plays out like it was designed to do.

 

[hawkeyefan]

They have all the influence over it. They had choices -- deal with the thieves guild or go off to the distant adventure site -- and they chose to ignore the thieves guild. The state of the city on their return is based on the decision they made.

Do you think the world should freeze in place as soon as the PCs move out of view, like in a video game?

But here's the thing... the world does freeze. This is because it's not actually a world. It's just a collection of ideas. The game focuses on the PCs no matter what, so anything not happening to them or around their immediate area is not happening.

Instead, what happens is that when they leave the city, it leaves play... we no longer see what's happening there. Then when they return to the city, a determination is made of what's happened in their absence. This then gets applied retroactively. So, they return to the city to find the thieves' guild has started a gang war and the city is now in the grips of tumult and violence in the streets.

Until they return to the city, the state of it is undetermined in play.

Yes, the GM may make such a determination ahead of that point of play, but until it's introduced to the PCs, it's subject to change. That's because nothing has actually happened.

 

[Irlo]

They have all the influence over it. They had choices -- deal with the thieves guild or go off to the distant adventure site -- and they chose to ignore the thieves guild. The state of the city on their return is based on the decision they made.

All the influence is very much overstating it. The only influence the players have is chosing not to engage with the guild. What happens instead is completely DM-driven and is largely independent of the players' decisions. Does the guild thrive in the absence of the PCs? Does it struggle due to in-fightings and resistance from the community? Does another band of adventurers deal with it instead? Does the local government institute draconian anti-theft measures that unjustly target innocents and criminals alike? Does the guild raid a long-forgotten vault beneath the city and unleash horrific hauntings?

When and if the PCs return to the city, the plot-wagon selected by the DM will be waiting for them.

I don't have any problem with this process either as a DM or as a player, but I think it's important to acknowledge that player's influence on game world events is largely inconsequential.

I don't think that the world should "freeze" when the players look away, but I also want to acknoweldge that the off-screen events do not flow as some natural, living world that runs on it's own. In most D&D games, off-screen events are DM-driven without player influence.

 

[Reynard]

But here's the thing... the world does freeze. This is because it's not actually a world. It's just a collection of ideas. The game focuses on the PCs no matter what, so anything not happening to them or around their immediate area is not happening.

Instead, what happens is that when they leave the city, it leaves play... we no longer see what's happening there. Then when they return to the city, a determination is made of what's happened in their absence. This then gets applied retroactively. So, they return to the city to find the thieves' guild has started a gang war and the city is now in the grips of tumult and violence in the streets.

Until they return to the city, the state of it is undetermined in play.

Yes, the GM may make such a determination ahead of that point of play, but until it's introduced to the PCs, it's subject to change. That's because nothing has actually happened.

This feels like a distinction without a difference.

 

[Micah Sweet]

But here's the thing... the world does freeze. This is because it's not actually a world. It's just a collection of ideas. The game focuses on the PCs no matter what, so anything not happening to them or around their immediate area is not happening.

Instead, what happens is that when they leave the city, it leaves play... we no longer see what's happening there. Then when they return to the city, a determination is made of what's happened in their absence. This then gets applied retroactively. So, they return to the city to find the thieves' guild has started a gang war and the city is now in the grips of tumult and violence in the streets.

Until they return to the city, the state of it is undetermined in play.

Yes, the GM may make such a determination ahead of that point of play, but until it's introduced to the PCs, it's subject to change. That's because nothing has actually happened.

Unless you keep track of time in your game, in which case the DM can certainly keep track of use various means of determination to figure out what's happening in places where the PCs are not present.

Of course you don't have to do these things, but I would really appreciate it the tone of those who disagree was a little less, "this is how it actually is, and you're either being disingenuous or deluding yourself to say otherwise". Not exactly conducive to discussion.

 

[Micah Sweet]

All the influence is very much overstating it. The only influence the players have is chosing not to engage with the guild. What happens instead is completely DM-driven and is largely independent of the players' decisions. Does the guild thrive in the absence of the PCs? Does it struggle due to in-fightings and resistance from the community? Does another band of adventurers deal with it instead? Does the local government institute draconian anti-theft measures that unjustly target innocents and criminals alike? Does the guild raid a long-forgotten vault beneath the city and unleash horrific hauntings?

When and if the PCs return to the city, the plot-wagon selected by the DM will be waiting for them.

I don't have any problem with this process either as a DM or as a player, but I think it's important to acknowledge that player's influence on game world events is largely inconsequential.

I don't think that the world should "freeze" when the players look away, but I also want to acknoweldge that the off-screen events do not flow as some natural, living world that runs on it's own. In most D&D games, off-screen events are DM-driven without player influence.

Perhaps what we're talking about is not most D&D games (as if that matters at all).