Unpopular opinions go here

[payn]

This thread cant even agree what is or is not a game. So...

This thread alone isnt the decider of what I find useful.

 

[overgeeked]

Payn's mostly got this covered. The "tabletop" in TT is more a designation of the shared, communal nature of the medium, rather than physical space.

Most CRPGs are singular affairs, and even many with multiplayer aren't really approached with the intent of "role-playing" rather than being a mechanical challenge on par with other most co-op games. But I hesitate to find meaningful difference between, say, a VTT playing D&D, a Zoom call playing Vampire, a custom campaign run through Neverwinter Nights, a role-play FFXIV server, or a group of people sitting at a physical table playing Traveller. The medium is different, the rules are managed differently, but the activity is essentially the same.

Sorry, but that's a terrible definition of "tabletop." You might as well say it's a computer game because we're all using our phones, tablets, and computers to play on.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Payn's mostly got this covered. The "tabletop" in TT is more a designation of the shared, communal nature of the medium, rather than physical space.

Most CRPGs are singular affairs, and even many with multiplayer aren't really approached with the intent of "role-playing" rather than being a mechanical challenge on par with other most co-op games. But I hesitate to find meaningful difference between, say, a VTT playing D&D, a Zoom call playing Vampire, a custom campaign run through Neverwinter Nights, a role-play FFXIV server, or a group of people sitting at a physical table playing Traveller. The medium is different, the rules are managed differently, but the activity is essentially the same.

The difference is in the specified diegetic framework.

It is necessarily created by the interaction between players (that would be the "GM-less" game) or between player(s) and GM(s). Within the definition I prefer, that requires ... humans.*

An interaction between player(s) and a computer is not an interaction that creates a diegetic framework that enables the same meaningful interaction. That's what excludes single-player CRPGs and MMORPGs.

A player playing with himself ... um ... solo ttRPGs also doesn't fall within this definition.

The game isn't created by the rules (as we all know), but is created by the interaction ... the process of interaction is role-playing.

Yada yada, big words, etc.



* I am agnostic as to the issue of AI players or DMs, other than to say that to the extent an AI can fully participate as if it were a human, then that would seem to fit.

 

[Cadence]

If it's only release ever is as an audiobook, then it's not a paperback novel.

 

[Reynard]

shrug

I think that no tabletop is required. A bunch of high school kids on a bus doing some freeform is also within the definition. So, for that matter, is LARPing.

To me, the essence of the ttRPG is not the tabletop, per se, it's the interaction between the human elements. I don't think that forecloses the use of a computer (such as a VTT, or discord, or a phone app to roll dice or hold character sheets), but it would exclude, for example, solo play or MMORPGs.

Emphasis mine.

I might quibble with that a little bit. I think most people know of WoW (or other) groups of people who deeply engage in roleplay while running around collecting apples and grinding for loot. That the mechanisms of play are the MMORPG does not preclude those people from role-playing, any more than the kids freeforming on the bus.

WoW isn't an RPG, it is a video game. But I would venture that people that use WoW as the mechanical backdrop of their role play are, in fact, playing an RPG.

 

[payn]

* I am agnostic as to the issue of AI players or DMs, other than to say that to the extent an AI can fully participate as if it were a human, then that would seem to fit.

Oh man, heads will explode when new terms are developed for A.I.

 

[Reynard]

Next confounding issue: AI DMs..

This is definitely coming, and soon. Anyone who thinks otherwise is not paying attention.

 

[Cadence]

WoW isn't an RPG, it is a video game. But I would venture that people that use WoW as the mechanical backdrop of their role play are, in fact, playing an RPG.

Just to clarify, Snarf was talking about ttRPGs and not RPGs in general.

Edit: Are you getting at that you think the MMORPG interaction between players is the same as the ttRPG?

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Emphasis mine.

I might quibble with that a little bit. I think most people know of WoW (or other) groups of people who deeply engage in roleplay while running around collecting apples and grinding for loot. That the mechanisms of play are the MMORPG does not preclude those people from role-playing, any more than the kids freeforming on the bus.

WoW isn't an RPG, it is a video game. But I would venture that people that use WoW as the mechanical backdrop of their role play are, in fact, playing an RPG.

I am not denying that they are cool and fun and that people roleplay while playing them. As I noted above, the definition that I personally find useful is incredibly expansive; it certainly covers everything from FKR to D&D to Story Now to DM-less games to LARP to (insert game here).

But nothing can be defined to cover absolutely everything. It doesn't cover MMORPGs. It doesn't cover someone doing a D&D solo adventure. It doesn't cover someone roleplaying while playing Wizardry. Such is life.

 

[payn]

Emphasis mine.

I might quibble with that a little bit. I think most people know of WoW (or other) groups of people who deeply engage in roleplay while running around collecting apples and grinding for loot. That the mechanisms of play are the MMORPG does not preclude those people from role-playing, any more than the kids freeforming on the bus.

WoW isn't an RPG, it is a video game. But I would venture that people that use WoW as the mechanical backdrop of their role play are, in fact, playing an RPG.

This. Which is why I find these subcategories useful, even if they dont have pinpoint specific definitions or overlap slightly. If random company I never heard of before announces they are making an RPG, that doesn't tell me how its played, it which medium, and with how many (or solo) players.