D&D 5E [+] Ways to fix the caster / non-caster gap

[ECMO3]

Games need to be balanced

I don't think I really agree with this, even classic competitive games like Clue and Monopoly are not balanced between all players.

I think this is even less important with a cooperative game like D&D.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

I don't think I really agree with this, even classic competitive games like Clue and Monopoly are not balanced between all players.

Nerf Colonel Mustard, he's obviously OP!

 

[Gammadoodler]

Superheroes?

For one yes.

Quite a bit in shounen anime as well.

Some fantasy, though likely not swords and sandals.

 

[mamba]

I don't think I really agree with this, even classic competitive games like Clue and Monopoly are not balanced between all players.

how is Monopoly not balanced, you all start out the same, and since there is no level progression you all stay the same from a balance perspective. One player owning more / better streets is the equivalent to magic items, not builds

 

[Tony Vargas]

how is Monopoly not balanced, you all start out the same, and since there is no level progression you all stay the same from a balance perspective. One player owning more / better streets is the equivalent to magic items, not builds

It's notorious, really, in itself, it provides very little in terms of meaningful choices. You mostly do what the dice and cards tell you, when you land on a property and can buy it, it's generally best to do so. The most meaningful decisions would be negotiating with other players, which is not governed by the rules. ... I'm sure you can google to find much more erudite and ringing condemnations of the world's most commercially successful boardgame, serious TT boardgamers seem to be really down on it. (no funny coincidences there)

(Candyland is the poster child for choiceless game. The dice essentially play the game. That's what makes it so suitable for very young children. Well, that and color matching vs counting)

I don't think I really agree with this, even classic competitive games like Clue and Monopoly are not balanced between all players.

I think this is even less important with a cooperative game like D&D.

In competitive games, fairness, which is, really, a lower standard than balance, is a minimum. In comparison to balance, fairness is each player has the same choices as the others (for instance, all could make the same choice, if it clearly the best choice), if imbalanced, some choices would non-viable (experienced players avoid them, they serve only as traps for the unwary) or meaningless (serving only to distract naive players from important choices).

In cooperative games, balance is essential. Each player needs to contribute to success, both for their own enjoyment, and for the collective win. Being dead weight isn't just un-fun, it can result in the collective loss. So choices need to be viable. Further, everyone contributing the same thing in the same way is less interesting than contributing in different ways, so the choices should be meaningful, as well.

 

[Gammadoodler]

That second thing. If no one can agree on an example, then it's not useful.

I think we'd find equal agreement regarding desirable caster power as we would with martial power.

As such I'm not really concerned about it if we're holding both things equal.

 

[Gammadoodler]

big if, I definitely do not consider the MCU even remotely what I want, doesn’t mean there cannot be a two minute sequence in one movie that I am ok with…

If not, then let's actually state what we're trying to model and why and then actually try to get there, instead of basing our decisions on what we don't want.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Oh sure. I understand how genres don't generally need to balance caster and martial archetypes and frequently would avoid doing so to showcase the "power" of one vs the other.

The trouble is that dramatically asymmetric power at the table feels bad for those who expect their character to be a peer with other PCs rather than a sidekick.

So maybe it's not a great design goal to effectively model a genre with wide gulfs in power between character archetypes, when other options ate available.

True, there are real challenges in modeling a genre in a typical TTRPG. One of them is that most variations on the fantasy genre have a Hero, and some ancillary characters. The hero may be the most powerful, or not, but will be the most important, typically making the most dramatic/meaningful/critical choices, or just have the most importance to the reader on some level. The other characters can be fun for the reader/viewer, even antagonist who they can love to hate. But that doesn't translate well to a cooperative game.

So TTRPGs compromise big-time, generally going for an ensemble cast of equals... equal in, since a certain 70s wargame started it, in 'power' centered around combat ability.

As if that's not hard enough, the magic-using characters most often found in those supporting roles can be supremely powerful villains, or helpers that only show up briefly, or exposition characters who contribute little else, even, like, dead weight you have to protect and drag to the right place so they do the one magic thing to the other magic thing and avert the apocalypse. So, like, faithfully getting genre 'right' in terms of relative power is fraught.

It's also worthless, because a cooperative game won't be fun if everyone isn't making meaningful choices and viable contributions. So, yeah, model genre as much as possible, but when it comes to the choices of character presented to players, balance them.

 

[Pedantic]

I don't think I really agree with this, even classic competitive games like Clue and Monopoly are not balanced between all players.

I think this is even less important with a cooperative game like D&D.

"Competitive games" is a mutually exclusive category with nearly anything using a roll-to-move model, and quite specifically with Monopoly and Clue.

 

[MichaelSomething]

There are tons of ways to address this issue. Thanks to DM empowerment, you can choose the methods that are right for you!