D&D 5E [+] Ways to fix the caster / non-caster gap

[Micah Sweet]

I am not worried about how they got them, I am not interested in them turning into Thor or The Hulk. The solution is not to make everyone a superhero, the solution is for no one to be one.

There already is a Marvels TTRPG if that is what you are looking for…

I've been reading it. It's pretty cool.

 

[Eric V]

given that martials already have issues with HP sustainability when they're the ones getting hit in melee range having the additional drain of that limited resource required to perform basic combat maneuvres is really going to be a kick in the teeth to them, i mean, if you want to have spellcasting deal damage to the mages when they cast too that'd probably be a fair compromise.

Do they? They tend to have the highest hp, no?

As well, it's only an issue if the hp cost is too high; the math would have to be done to make sure it's reasonable. I am sure that's possible, though. It would also put the decision in the hands of the player: it might be fun to burn some hp to go for this big maneuver, or I could play it safe and do a vanilla attack.

Finally, it would address the issue of the adventurer who is just as effective at 1 hp as they are at full. Under this system, "No, you're not" because you no longer have the energy to pull off the maneuvers that make you a badass.

So I finally got to page 6 or so, and saw that @Fanaelialae mentioned something similar regarding adrenaline. It's basically what I am saying except we would be using a pre-existing resource.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I mean, what's wrong with fantasy worlds just having a narrative of "Some people are given hidden blessings by the gods. These people can grow in stature, skill, and will from risk. danger and exposure to the evils of the world to grow into people who can challenge the gods themselves".

Nothing. But you have to put that narrative in the book somewhere. You can't just assume it for every table.

 

[mamba]

Why? This would be a clear distinction between sorcerers and wizards

because both should get exhausted either way, and if you penalize martials by making them lose HP for using their skills, you at least should do the same for casters

 

[Vaalingrade]

Do they? They tend to have the highest hp, no?

1) Not by much if the caster player knows what they're doing.

2) Because they get hit the most.

 

[mamba]

I think they’re increasingly irrelevant to the future of the game and trying to appeal to them is part of the problem. This is why I keep mentioning bewer fans and their touchstones.

given that most campaigns end before level 12, they might be more relevant than the ‘superhero / anime tropes’ you seem to want to graft on

 

[mamba]

I've been reading it. It's pretty cool.

so how do they deal with having Hawkeye and Ironman as players?

 

[Eric V]

1) Not by much if the caster player knows what they're doing.

2) Because they get hit the most.

Ok. Still, this is just a matter of degree...it is only out of whack if the cost for the maneuver is made too high in the design process.

As well, there's room for design space like the following:

Reliable Maneuver
Zorro always knows how to feint an opponent.
Choose a maneuver you have known since level X. You no longer need to pay the hp cost for that maneuver.

Grizzled Veteran
"Even now, I could cut through the five of you as easy as a dagger cuts cheese."
As long as your hp are above X, you can use maneuvers of levels A-B without paying the hp cost.

 

[Cadence]

Not having seen a lot of the ideas in the thread, so apologies if this has been mentioned:

To address the issue of "why don't martials do these maneuvers all the time?"...make the resource for those maneuvers hit points.

Since hp represent more than just meat, and they are also a measure of the character's vitality overall, make them what gets spent when pulling off a maneuver.

So, the fighter can use, say, "Whirlwind Strike" which is an attack that targets all opponents within reach and it costs X hit points. When the fighter is weakened (low on hp), she has a hard time pulling off that move. When she's at capacity, no problem. Higher level maneuvers would cost more hp and have greater effects.

A system like this seems to reflect what we see in action movies, comics, etc. It has a natural scale-ability to it, and as a bonus makes in-combat healing more important beyond whack-a-mole.

Like different casters have different lists, different martials would have different lists of maneuvers; maybe rogues have more debilitating effects, and barbarians break armour and knock prone. As well, for people who prefer simple warriors...no problem. Don't use the maneuvers and keep your hit points.

Frankly, I wish this is how sorcerers worked as well.

When things like this have been brought up before I remember being convinced that it really makes the game not fun to have to decide how much closer to death you want to be to do things on a regular basis.

One place I've wondered about using it is when people run out of their daily or short rest abilities. What if you usually only do that maneuver once because it's so taxing... but if you reach down and push it you can do it again. Where reaching down and pushing it is the hit point expenditure. (I could also see exhaustion instead of hit points too).

 

[Eric V]

because both should get exhausted either way, and if you penalize martials by making them lose HP for using their skills, you at least should do the same for casters

I mean, I guess. It's about resource management, right? The martials have to be conscious of their expenditures, but have more flexibility. If the wizard runs out of slots, they're done, but the sorcerer can get some hp restored (or use THP) and go again. I can see advantages and disadvantages for both. The correct math would make it work, IMO.