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D&D 5E [+] Ways to fix the caster / non-caster gap

Cadence

Legend
Supporter
Oh jeez, uh, hang on, I know there's a breakdown somewhere in the books. Even if we get past the big names (Manshoon, Szass Tam, Elminster, Larloch, Khelben, The Simbul & the rest of her sisters), I believe Descent into Avernus mentions that there are 3-6 Archmages just hanging out in Candlekeep. There's a lot of Tier 4 NPC's in Dragon Heist.

Is Candlekeep like the center of knowledge for the whole planet?

Back in the Grey Box days, King Azoun of Cormyr was level 20, his court wizard hit level 18 the last time I saw him statted.

Is Cormyr big?

40 on a planet of say 400 million doesn't seem common to me... 400 would start to feel like they were a lot more common than I would expect given the tier description.

But then again, an unknown apprentice can rise that high in under a year of working really hard.
 

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James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Supporter
Ok, from Forgotten Realms Adventures, just from the first five cities, we have:

Arabel-

Baron Thomdor (Fighter 17)
Jestra Wizard 18
Mellomir Wizard 27
Theavos Wizard 17

Baldur's Gate-

Entar Silvershield (Fighter 21)
Liaa Jannath (Wizard 16)
Belt (Fighter 19)
Eltan (Fighter 20)
Gondal (Wizard 17)
Lanthalim (Wizard 18)
High Artificer Thalamond Albaier (Cleric 17)
Alatos "Ravenscar" Thuibuld (Rogue 19)
Dabron Sashenstar (Fighter 23)
Javalar Roaringhorn (Fighter 19)
Balanta Whiteshield (Fighter 16)

Berdusk-

Cylyria Dragonbreast (Bard 26)
Beldegar Virthalan (Wizard 16)
Vigilant Godseye Tathlosar Brimmerbold (Fighter 18)

Calaunt-

High Priestess, a.k.a "Moon Mistress" Wyndra Syrylstone (Cleric 19...probably. It actually says she's level 190, but I'm confident that's a typo)

Daerlun-

Aerbront (Wizard 17)
Sandar "Silkenvoice" Kathklan (Wizard 16)
High Priestess Thauna Maskalar (Cleric 21)

I could keep going, but this is pretty standard. It's worth noting that when/if these characters are mentioned in later books, they tend to rise in level, even though the level structure of the game changes as time goes by.
 


James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Supporter
Is Candlekeep like the center of knowledge for the whole planet?



Is Cormyr big?

40 on a planet of say 400 million doesn't seem common to me... 400 would start to feel like they were a lot more common than I would expect given the tier description.

But then again, an unknown apprentice can rise that high in under a year of working really hard.
Cormyr's population is 1,360,800 according to the Wiki. It's a very powerful nation, just for reference, the War Wizards (one of two branches of it's military, the other being the Purple Dragon Knights) consist of 3000 Wizards, led by a 18th level Wizard, with four 16th level Wizards beneath him.
 

Cadence

Legend
Supporter
Cormyr's population is 1,360,800 according to the Wiki. It's a very powerful nation, just for reference, the War Wizards (one of two branches of it's military, the other being the Purple Dragon Knights) consist of 3000 Wizards, led by a 18th level Wizard, with four 16th level Wizards beneath him.

That's a freaking lot of tier 4 (or almost tier 4) people in FR.
 

James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Supporter
That's a freaking lot of tier 4 people in FR.
Yes it's one of the major issues of the setting; you can't throw a rock without the risk of hitting an archmage. The role of the individual player characters are often overshadowed by the real movers and shakers, who shuffle you around like pieces on a gameboard, while they are engaged in a long-running magical cold war. Elminster describes this state of affairs in the novel Spellfire where, if, say, he and Manshoon decided to tap all their power sources, allies, clones, simulacrums, et. al., the entire continent would likely be destroyed. So they don't use their full power for fear of mutual annihlation.

And since many heroes of the Realms have become iconic characters, important to the brand, they don't often die, and continue to lurk about even as the timeline skips ahead to justify changes for each new edition.

When Tomb of Annihlation came around, with Acererak deciding to use the Realms as the location for his latest scheme, my response was "good luck with that". Even if the player characters bungle it up, there's characters just as powerful as the Demilich already there!

For example, Larloch the Shadow King, who as I recall was level 32 in 3.x, and could easily take over the world- but he'd rather focus on learning more about magic than actually bother, so he most just sits around and studies, lol.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
OK, yes, all that FR uber-NPC stuff sounds horrible. But, it also serves to keep the product stable, in that it provides the DM many ways of stopping or un-doing any precipitous changes the PCs might inadvertently - or advertently - inflict upon it. Thus, when the next set rolls out and that status quo hasn't changed much or has changed in a certain way, everyone out there can still buy it, rather than going - oh, wow, my FR campaign has diverged so much this new stuff is useless to me!
 

Zubatcarteira

Now you're infected by the Musical Doodle
That does seem to be a thing with D&D that you can't actually change the settings much, a lot of the big villains just don't die when you kill them (Strahd, Acererak, Tiamat, Orcus, etc).
 


Harry Potter -- certainly reliable, high frequency, and no cost. But power and versatility doesn't seem up to par. A lot of effects seem dependent on items, some artifact like - flying, teleporting, invisibility, time travel, etc. Many of the frequently used spells are things like levitation, disarm, and paralyze.
Teleporting can certainly be done with just a wand (Arcane Focus). Apportation. I believe Invisibility can - but the cloak is more akin to Greater Invisibility. And the power of Harry Potter's wizards depends on which series of films - remember Harry and co. are still at school.
It's true Dr. Strange can basically just do anything so it is more extreme than the D&D Wizard, but I still maintain the D&D Wizard is closer to this than most of the fantasy wizards I've read or watched.

no cost
high versatility
high reliability
not unlimited but pretty high frequency per day
high power
Yeah, this is Harry Potter, video games, or comics. And even when we look at myths the mythological casters are almost all obvious NPCs.
That does seem to be a thing with D&D that you can't actually change the settings much, a lot of the big villains just don't die when you kill them (Strahd, Acererak, Tiamat, Orcus, etc).
It used to be said "no one ever stays dead in comics except Bucky, Jason Todd, and Uncle Ben". And two of those returned in 2005.
 

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