D&D (2024) Elves without racism [+]

[Yaarel]

So Drow would be a culture rather than a sub race?
And then we can apply the same concept to Dwarf culture, orc culture, human culture?
Orc eladrin?
Dragon born drow?

The Elf is a species. Similarly, the Dwarf, Orc, and Human are distinct species.

Within the Elf species, Drow is a group that includes at least three related cultures: Aeven, Loren, and Uda. Baldurs Gate 3 also mentions Seldarine as a distinctive population of Drow, thus a fourth culture.

It is possible for an Orc to be part of the Eladrin culture, growing up in or marrying into one of its communities. Note, according to the novel Starlight Enclave, the Aevendrow culture at the elven community of Callidae includes Human, Dwarf, and Orc citizens.

A Dragonborn can grow up in an elven culture.

 

[aco175]

We could just do away with all the cultures and just have one, like humans. This would solve all the problems and free people to have whatever appearance they like. Humans do not have any sub races or sub cultures so why would any of the other races? We just have the base traits for being born an elf and be done. You get the +2/+1 to flavor your stats and a feat to be cool.

 

[Horwath]

What really needs to be done is:

1. Tone down on biological/genetic traits in race/species budget.
Limit racial spellcasting to 1 cantrips and max one 1st level spell. Rest can be taken via racial feats.

2. have all have half-elves +2/+1+/1 ASI, or alternative +1 to 5 abilities.
This still leaves option for an "8" in point buy/array.

3. Culture/background mechanics:
3 skills, 3 tools/weapons/languages. those things are enough to customize your character.

4. Chose a feat.
Can be linked to background or doesn't need to be. List can be condensed or totally open.
This feat can be feats designed by OP.

 

[Frozen_Heart]

1. Tone down on biological/genetic traits in race/species budget.
Limit racial spellcasting to 1 cantrips and max one 1st level spell. Rest can be taken via racial feats.

Honestly I'd rather tone them up, and make them even more distinct. Losing the species ASI bonuses has made them slightly more homogenous. Toning down the distinct traits and abilities brings species even closer to just being cosmetic.

Never been a fan of just replacing species traits with spellcasting either.

 

[Yaarel]

We could just do away with all the cultures and just have one, like humans. This would solve all the problems and free people to have whatever appearance they like.

I agree a player character should appear in whatever way the player wants. It is the character concept that matters.

We just have the base traits for being born an elf and be done.

Yeah. Like the Human, there needs to be only one − culturally neutral − kind of Elf.

Similar to how the Human has design that is versatile, and able to accommodate many different kinds of character concepts, the Elf too needs a design that is versatile, and able to accommodate many different kinds of elven character concepts.

Humans do not have any sub races or sub cultures so why would any of the other races?

Heh. Actually.

According to the 2014 Players Handbook, defaulting to the Forgotten Realms setting, the Human species has nine large cultures.

Large Human Cultures
Calishite
Chondathan
Damaran
Illuskan
Mulan
Rashemi
Shou
Tethyrian
Turami

And there are many more smaller cultures, such as the Vistani, Chultan, and Ffolk.

Each of the large Human cultures distinguishes by region, and many communities within each region. (Example, the Illuskan Human divides regionally into Northlander, Uthgardter, Hartsvaler, and elsewhere.) Humans are diverse. Even the communities within a same culture can differ from each other significantly.

The Elf cultures are the same as the Human cultures.


I worry about how Forgotten Realms portrays the Human cultures, since their narratives often draw inspiration from reallife cultures. The more sensitive update for the Vistani culture, who parallel reallife Romani, is an example of fixing a problem that existed within the earlier D&D traditions. Even in the 2014 Players Handbook, the Human cultural descriptions come across as if "those people are all the same", and obsess over skin color and eye color to a degree that is uncomfortable.


That said. I like D&D having a species that diversifies into cultures. It can be well done.

The important part is, like each Human culture, there must never be game mechanics that reduce an entire Elf culture.

A Human culture is diverse. An Elf culture is too.

 

[Horwath]

Honestly I'd rather tone them up, and make them even more distinct. Losing the species ASI bonuses has made them slightly more homogenous. Toning down the distinct traits and abilities brings species even closer to just being cosmetic.

Never been a fan of just replacing species traits with spellcasting either.

not a fan personally either, but people want cultures to matter and less biological determinism.

Then you lean in on ASIs and Skills and tools.

I.E. some desert dwelling nomad might have proficiency in Survival, Athletics and Nature with tools for Leatherworking, Cartographer and Cooking.

 

[Yaarel]

You get the +2/+1 to flavor your stats and a feat to be cool.

2. have all have half-elves +2/+1+/1 ASI, or alternative +1 to 5 abilities.

Earlier editions of D&D employed mechanics that confuse "biology" with "culture". This is the essence of the D&D problem with reallife racism.

Linking ability improvements to "race" is harmful. The moment one looks to reallife cultures for inspiration to describe a "low Intelligence" "race", it is instantly problematic.

Nevermind some "inspirations", such as fantasy literature, are saturated with the reallife racisms of the previous centuries.

The D&D mechanics that confuse "biology" and "culture" enforce the perpetuation of racism.


The Playtest is a breakthru. (Tashas and other 5e books set the precedents.) The Playtest reorganizes the earlier "race" mechanics, into "species" mechanics and "background" mechanics. It is the background mechanics that determines the ability improvements. This is a precise solution.

It is no longer possible to describe and characterize how an entire species is "low Intelligence".

It is not even possible to describe and characterize how an entire culture is "low Intelligence".

The background design space means, the INDIVIDUAL can be "low Intelligence" or "high Intelligence". There is no such thing as a culture that is.

Example, a character that trains to excel as a Gladiator seems likelier to be stronger than a character who trains to be a Sage. Moreover, these characters can continue to advance in Strength and Intelligence, respectively, as they advance to higher levels. Meanwhile, the background design is versatile, and makes it easy (and legal) to create characters who are individuals that dont represent the trend. Some Sages really are very strong.

Meanwhile, every "Humanoid" species is, by definition, comparable to reallife humans, with free will, the capacity of speech, the ability to learn, the ability to organize into social groups, in other words, form a culture that is diverse.

By mechanically focusing on the individual background, the Playtest makes it possible to escape the earlier problem of the D&D collective stereotypes and racisms.


Unfortunately, the D&D Elf traditions are profoundly racist in numerous ways. Both the elven mechanics and the elven narratives are toxic. It is difficult to continue the D&D Elf without being racist.

Not everything is bad. There are aspects of the D&D Elf traditions that are wonderful. I love the magic. I appreciate the beauty. I like the diversity of Elves. Many players do. But the Elf has issues.

The Playtest designers are close to resolving the issues with the Elf. Removing the ability improvements from the Elf species is a breakthru. Noticing the difference between one "kind" of Elf and an other "kind" of Elf, is actually the choice of spells, identifies what the Elf concept is, and how to make it diverse, in ways that avoid racist or cultural stereotypes.

Not everything needs to be a spell ... but for the Elf concept it kinda does.

Like the mechanics for the Human species, having mechanics for the Elf species that focus on the individual, who participates in a wider community, is how to have both diversity and avoid stereotypes.

 

[Frozen_Heart]

not a fan personally either, but people want cultures to matter and less biological determinism.

Then you lean in on ASIs and Skills and tools.

I.E. some desert dwelling nomad might have proficiency in Survival, Athletics and Nature with tools for Leatherworking, Cartographer and Cooking.

I definitely want background to matter a lot. With everything which is a 'learnt' skill going under there, as well as ASI's. So tools, proficiencies, spells, languages, etc all being under background.

But things like flight, waterbreathing, small size, trance, or breathing fire aren't just cultural things. A bird being able to fly, or a fish being able to swim and breathe underwater aren't problematic.

 

[Bagpuss]

The Elf is a species. Similarly, the Dwarf, Orc, and Human are distinct species.

Within the Elf species, Drow is a group that includes at least three related cultures: Aeven, Loren, and Uda. Baldurs Gate 3 also mentions Seldarine as a distinctive population of Drow, thus a fourth culture.

It is possible for an Orc to be part of the Eladrin culture, growing up in or marrying into one of its communities. Note, according to the novel Starlight Enclave, the Aevendrow culture at the elven community of Callidae includes Human, Dwarf, and Orc citizens.

A Dragonborn can grow up in an elven culture.

Yeah they are a culture but they are also an ethnic group within the same species.

You are saying nothing comes from their ethnicity it is all from their culture?

So a Goliath raised by Wood Elves, would pick up the Moon and Roam Mythral abilities on top of their normal species ones?

 

[Frozen_Heart]

Meanwhile, every "Humanoid" species is, by definition, comparable to reallife humans, with free will, the capacity of speech, the ability to learn, the ability to organize into social groups, in other words, form a culture that is diverse.

I think this is the crux of the issue.

It's clear that a lot of people view the dnd races as just slightly different humans, in the same way there are different ethnicities irl. Suggesting that one human race is dumber or stronger than another human race is awful, and people rightfully get censored for it.

While a lot of us view the dnd species as completely separate and in many cases unrelated creatures, often barely comparable to humans at all. Saying a centaur is innately stronger than a human makes as much sense as a horse being stronger than a human. They're not just 'humans, but not', they're a completely alien species which also has sapience, but completely different abilities and may view and interact with the world in a different way.

And I honestly don't see any way for these two groups to reconcile their views.