D&D (2024) Elves without racism [+]

[Horwath]

I definitely want background to matter a lot. With everything which is a 'learnt' skill going under there, as well as ASI's. So tools, proficiencies, spells, languages, etc all being under background.

But things like flight, waterbreathing, small size, trance, or breathing fire aren't just cultural things. A bird being able to fly, or a fish being able to swim and breathe underwater aren't problematic.

Some spells if not all should be innate/biological.

some skills also.

Almost always elves are describe to have superior senses.

That would be superb described with Proficiency+Expertise in Perception, maybe even Insight.

Athletics plus increased carry capacity(large build) can describe "strong" species without chaining them to mandatory +2 STR.

Dwarven +1 HP per level is excellent way to describe "tough" without spending ASI for +2 CON

Agile species getting Acrobatics and +5 move speed is better that increasing DEX by default.


also as you mentioned, Darkvision, movement modes, resistances, immunities, natural attacks/armor should be genetic.

 

[Horwath]

Earlier editions of D&D employed mechanics that confuse "biology" with "culture". This is the essence of the D&D problem with reallife racism.

Linking ability improvements to "race" is harmful. The moment one looks to reallife cultures for inspiration to describe a "low Intelligence" "race", it is instantly problematic.

I didn't link them, I just said that all races/species for 2024 should get current half elves +2/+1/+1 floating bonuses, with option of getting +1 to 5 scores, as +2 to one score could be worth +1 to 3 scores, if not more.

Giving more ASIs at creation(+1 extra) can reduce other traits a little so there is less "racial" baggage to contend with.

Also having Background/culture getting 3 skills, 3 tools/languages/weapons and 1 feat will give more room for customization and less for determination of traits.

 

[Yaarel]

I think this is the crux of the issue.

It's clear that a lot of people view the dnd races as just slightly different humans, in the same way there are different ethnicities irl. Suggesting that one human race is dumber or stronger than another human race is awful, and people rightfully get censored for it.

Yeah.

While a lot of us view the dnd species as completely separate and in many cases unrelated creatures, often barely comparable to humans at all. Saying a centaur is innately stronger than a human makes as much sense as a horse being stronger than a human. They're not just 'humans, but not', they're a completely alien species which also has sapience, but completely different abilities and may view and interact with the world in a different way.

And I honestly don't see any way for these two groups to reconcile their views.

In the Playtest, the Dragonborn has "ancestors". But the difference between one Dragonborn and an other, is the difference between a Green Dragon and a Brass Dragon. For the most part, these are mainly nonhuman differences that are mainly irrelevant to concerns about racism in D&D. Hypothetically, D&D could do something stupid like say, all the Evil Dragonborn are African nations, and all the Good Dragonborn are European nations, but D&D doesnt go there. The nonhuman Dragonborn seems mostly fine so far.

By contrast, the Elf is a problem. The D&D traditions describe the difference between Elves in ways that are like reallife Human ethnicities, including reallife racist tropes and even racist attitudes between Elves.

It is necessary to treat the Elf species with the same cultural sensitivity as the Human species.

 

[Horwath]

To me ideal elf would be:

1. Elven immunities
2. Elven trance
3. Darkvision 60ft
4. Proficiency+Expertise in perception
5. one extra cantrip or +5ft move speed or +60ft darkvison, depending on subspecies.

then add +2/+1/+1 ASI

Then add background/culture;
+3 skills
+3 tools/languages/weapons
+1 feat

 

[Yaarel]

I didn't link them, I just said that all races/species for 2024 should get current half elves +2/+1/+1 floating bonuses, with option of getting +1 to 5 scores, as +2 to one score could be worth +1 to 3 scores, if not more.

Giving more ASIs at creation(+1 extra) can reduce other traits a little so there is less "racial" baggage to contend with.

Also having Background/culture getting 3 skills, 3 tools/languages/weapons and 1 feat will give more room for customization and less for determination of traits.

Yeah, floating bonuses for a species is mechanically fine and neutral. And I am ok with that.

But it is also kinda flavorless. I mean, why have bonuses in the first place?

The Playtest connects the ability improvement with background. This is flavorful. The Gladiators tend to be strong because they are Gladiators, and train athletically. Meanwhile, the background design space is versatile. A player can have a Gladiator who instead excels in Dexterity. But even here, it is because the character concept is a Gladiator. The mechanics express the flavor.

At first I was surprised by moving the ability improvements to background. But now I see its wisdom.

 

[Yaarel]

To me ideal elf would be:

1. Elven immunities
2. Elven trance
3. Darkvision 60ft
4. Proficiency+Expertise in perception
5. one extra cantrip or +5ft move speed or +60ft darkvison, depending on subspecies.

then add +2/+1/+1 ASI

Then add background/culture;
+3 skills
+3 tools/languages/weapons
+1 feat

Elf Trance is a D&Dism that I have grown fond of.


Heh. I hate Darkvision for the Elf.

There is too much Darkvision anyway, and nothing about it feels especially "elven".

Yeah, the Dark Elves who live in the Dark can see in the Dark. And the nocturnal "Moon" Mythal, fine.

But Darkvision shouldnt be a thing that every Elf has.


Charm Resistance should be Magic Resistance. No other Fey creature has Charm Resistance, so I dont understand why this would be "Fey Ancestry". But Fey creatures do have Magic Resistance, such as the Dryad. And so do some versions of Drow and Eladrin. Magic Resistance is more a Fey thing. And the reference to Charm doenst really make sense unless the Elves are in a culture where Charm is happening all the time ... such as in Fey Court politics. I hope to see a higher level Elf option that allows full-on Magic Resistance. I would add Mythal Feats for Magic Resistance at a higher level. But I am unsure how much design space the higher level Feats will have. I see that a level-4 Feat has twice as much design space as a level-0 Feat. But I dont know how much space the Feats at level 8, 12, 16, and 19 allow.

For Perception, the "Proficiency" feels cultural rather than innate. But I am ok with Advantage, where even an untrained can benefit.


Because Elves spellcast innately, things like Darkvision and Perception can be culturally acquired, magically. Hence the Mythal Feats.


What distinguishes the Human species from the Elf species is, the Elf evolves extreme reliance on magic. The Elf is literally something like absolute pure fluid magic who is pretending to be a Human.

 

[Yaarel]

Yeah they are a culture but they are also an ethnic group within the same species.

You are saying nothing comes from their ethnicity it is all from their culture?

So a Goliath raised by Wood Elves, would pick up the Moon and Roam Mythral abilities on top of their normal species ones?

Ethnicity includes things like language, a common history, shared sacred traditions. Ethnicity can be strictly cultural.

Meanwhile, in communities where there is much genetic admixture among various gene pools, the genetic aspects of "ethnicity" become irrelevant, and it is strictly the learned culture that is distinct.

Culture is the more useful way to describe human diversity.

 

[Leatherhead]

This is similar to how I changed elves in my homebrew. Only instead of Mythals, it was Temples of the Land, and an Elf could change their attunement by meditation/prayer at one of them at any time, though it took several hours to do so.

 

[Bagpuss]

even racist attitudes between Elves

Nothing wrong with creatures having racist attitudes in fantasy, as long as they are treated as harmful and wrong. Bad guys can be bad.

 

[Alzrius]

Nothing wrong with creatures having racist attitudes in fantasy, as long as they are treated as harmful and wrong. Bad guys can be bad.

If only more people thought that way.