D&D 5E [+] Ways to fix the caster / non-caster gap

[Tony Vargas]

The only important part is what happens when the wizard throws a dispel magic at the fighter at that point.

Thru the editions....
TSR "whoa, what happened? Charmed? I don't remember being charmed..."
3.x "oh....guys, which spells did you have pre-cast on me again? We've got to check all of them!? 'targeted' dispel? Fine... level? Well, we're all the same level, except Dave is behind by 1 from making all those wands...oh, that reminds me, was the Bull's STR from the wand or did you cast it?...sure hope I don't lose the Death Ward..."
4e "...am I a conjuration or a zone? ...is this a trick question?"
5e "I use my Reaction to cast Counterspell"

 

[Gammadoodler]

I think where this gets confusing is because “supernatural” only exists within a frame of reference, and more specifically a frame of reference where there is an observer watching a work of fiction.

If I go outside right now and suddenly can fly like Superman, that would be an obviously supernatural event to us. But if I really did fly, it isn't supernatural because it actually happened within our universe, it's just our frame of reference of what was naturally capable was simply incorrect right up until that moment.

But we can still view that example as supernatural for us, even though it's just a hypothetical projection of our own world, because all hypothetical examples are merely fiction. We're observing our own (hypothetical) change in reference as to what's actually possible, but as outside observers, so we can classify those abilities as supernatural for our frame of reference of "natural".

Personally I see the frame of reference as the set of setting constraints applicable to the story that the author has conveyed to the audience.

This is particularly true when two people are to fairly discuss the same bit of media.

If we go into a fresh discussion about a story, it's unfair for me to expect you to engage with that discussion taking into account all my eccentric interpretations unsupported by the narrative.

If you provide a narrative example from John Wick, and I tell you that it's invalid because I consider the John Wick universe to be an elaborate simulation akin to The Matrix, how are you meant to engage with that? It has nothing to do with anything the creators have shown or suggested about the John Wick Universe (unless there are some real bombshells in the last movie that came out)

At that point, we aren't talking about what's actually in the movies, just my eccentric interpretations.

 

[Gammadoodler]

I would say that he died right after and wasn't first level to begin with.

There's a big span between what we expect characters can do at first level, at twentieth level, and how they scale up in the meantime. The discussion of how supernatural humans are is pretty irrelevant if we are talking about their specific abilities. It is a conceit that the characters will grow in power and ability over time. If an otherwise mundane person learns cloud step at twelfth level, that looks like a supernatural ability to me. The only important part is what happens when the wizard throws a dispel magic at the fighter at that point.

In general the parties to this discussion thus far have not cared about what level a character is. If they are mundane, supernatural feats should be inaccessible to them no matter the level.

The logic tends to go, if you want to do superhuman John Henry stuff, you need to have some specific supernatural license to do so.

And to support that this approach is appropriate, the invitation goes out...."show me a character in a story who does superhuman (say John Henry-esque) feats without being supernatural"

Examples come in..

and..as if by magic

The person who proffered the invite considers all such examples supernatural. (with either no supporting argument or the circular argument that since the examples did something superhuman, they must be supernatural regardless of the particulars of the story)

It's happened twice now in this thread. It's weirdly consistent.

 

[Micah Sweet]

In general the parties to this discussion thus far have not cared about what level a character is. If they are mundane, supernatural feats should be inaccessible to them no matter the level.

Could have sworn I said the opposite of this in this very thread today...

 

[Gammadoodler]

Could have sworn I said the opposite of this in this very thread today...

Did you? I believe the substance of what you stated is captured in the first 2 paragraphs, no? I noticed you missed the second one.. here it is..

The logic tends to go, if you want to do superhuman John Henry stuff, you need to have some specific supernatural license to do so.

If mundane...nothing supernatural at any level. As a solution.. some explicit supernatural license built in somewhere during the leveling journey.

But without that explicit license no dice.

If you think this is an inaccurate or unfair characterization, or if there is something new that I've missed, I'd be happy to be corrected.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Did you? I believe the substance of what you stated is captured in the first 2 paragraphs, no? I noticed you missed the second one.. here it is..


If mundane...nothing supernatural at any level. As a solution.. some explicit supernatural license built in somewhere during the leveling journey.

But without that explicit license no dice.

If you think this is an inaccurate or unfair characterization, or if there is something new that I've missed, I'd be happy to be corrected.

No that's fair, and I stand by it. I want that explanation.

 

[gban007]

Been pondering this one, and I'm not one to play fighters typically, and we don't tend to play beyond 11th / 12th level to see where problems really arise, but when I think of a good fighter, I'm thinking someone who is fast /instinctive and dangerous in combat, able to take on multiple opponents (thinking of many of the fighters from the Malazan series here really).
While Extra Attack does get better over time, and action surge allows for another set of attacks, I don't think it quite captures it all.

I'm thinking something like at a certain level, a fighter starts getting their proficiency bonus added to initiative, to reflect that they will tend to react faster than most.
I also think after a certain level, every time a foe misses the fighter in combat, that foe takes proficiency bonus damage, to reflect the skill / deadliness of fighter, able to riposte / parry / take advantage of flaws in opponents attacks.
I would like some sort of automatic cleave thing in practice as well, to help give something equivalent to AOE attacks that casters get, as it appears that everything is balanced against single target damage, and so to a degree AOE gets bonus damage if multiple opponents, and would be good for fighter to get something akin to that, able to damage multiple opponents at same time, ignoring extra attack - though would need to be in such a way that it doesn't become a Bag of Rats style situation.

Outside of combat, I'm thinking sort of two paths that a fighter can choose from, and not sure how well this would go with subclass choices, where this could be encroaching on, but thinking sort of:

1: - the athletic sort of path, with a bonus (not sure what) to strength and dex based skills, especially athletics / acrobatics, to represent that a good fighter is good at that sort of thing (potentially need same for Barbarian as well) - and is where I start looking at the people who can do wall running, so perhaps 10' climb movement sort of thing to represent freedom of movement / ability to run up / off walls to get more manoeuvrability

2. - the charismatic / leadership path, with a bonus to charisma based skills, especially persuasion / intimidation (intimidating presence sort of thing). I don't see that this would cause an issue for other charisma characters, but wanting to show that a certain type of fighter could be as good as a Bard or Sorcerer at certain 'social' skills outside of magic effects at least.

My rough thoughts / 2 cents

 

[Neonchameleon]

Been pondering this one, and I'm not one to play fighters typically, and we don't tend to play beyond 11th / 12th level to see where problems really arise, but when I think of a good fighter, I'm thinking someone who is fast /instinctive and dangerous in combat, able to take on multiple opponents (thinking of many of the fighters from the Malazan series here really).
While Extra Attack does get better over time, and action surge allows for another set of attacks, I don't think it quite captures it all.

I'm thinking something like at a certain level, a fighter starts getting their proficiency bonus added to initiative, to reflect that they will tend to react faster than most.
I also think after a certain level, every time a foe misses the fighter in combat, that foe takes proficiency bonus damage, to reflect the skill / deadliness of fighter, able to riposte / parry / take advantage of flaws in opponents attacks.
I would like some sort of automatic cleave thing in practice as well, to help give something equivalent to AOE attacks that casters get, as it appears that everything is balanced against single target damage, and so to a degree AOE gets bonus damage if multiple opponents, and would be good for fighter to get something akin to that, able to damage multiple opponents at same time, ignoring extra attack - though would need to be in such a way that it doesn't become a Bag of Rats style situation.

To me there's a huge thing missing as well; as physically adept characters (everyone really but the physical adepts in particular) level up they should get a faster base movement speed, Monk style. A level 1 fighter should not have the same ground speed (ignoring occasional action surges) as a level 20 fighter. Of course how much extra speed should be given would require D&D to pick a lane which it refuses to do.

 

[ECMO3]

I never pictured Yu Shu Lien (Michelle Yeoh's character) in Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon as being supernatural, for example.

I don't think anything in the video is supernatural, but I also think all of what is in the video is already available RAW in 5E to Fighters, or other martials for that matter.

In other words you don't need any changes in the rules to do what is in the video.

 

[Cadence]

I don't think anything in the video is supernatural, but I also think all of what is in the video is already available RAW in 5E to Fighters, or other martials for that matter.

In other words you don't need any changes in the rules to do what is in the video.

The second one a few posts later has a bit of the jumping from roof to roof in it, that I'm not sure matches as well (but still feels like is just a thing skilled people can do without being supernatural in that genre).