Unpopular opinions go here

[Zardnaar]

I'd find it peculiar to argue 4e is more rules heavy than 3.x
I like both and am frustrated with both for mostly different reasons. As with 5e, we are a difficult lot to please.

Depends how much you throw at it.

4E core books only even 4E fans probably don't want to do that. 3.5 tends to work better core only.

More feats/powers means more complexity.

You can play a basic class in 3.5 it may not be very good. 4E everything is a spellcaster in complexity. Think the character sheets were 5 pages long vs 2 or 3 or 1 in earlier D&D.

 

[AnotherGuy]

4E everything is a spellcaster in complexity. Think the character sheets were 5 pages long vs 2 or 3 or 1 in earlier D&D.

5 pages long sure, but that is because of layout if you're being fair.
That is my take on it.

 

[Zardnaar]

5 pages long sure, but that is because of layout if you're being fair.
That is my take on it.

For me it's a combination of page counts and complexity.

5E is still rules heavy but its somewhat modular eg pick a sim0le class no feats.

4E doesn't really have simple classes until essentials.

None of the modern editions are rules light and depends on how many books you throw at it.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Depends on which one you like. Whichever one someone likes, that is the rules light game. If they do not like it, it cannot be rules light. Same with simulationist. SImulationist, as far as I can tell means a game someone likes. Does not really matter what the game is or how it is written. If they like it, then it is a sim game. Because they like sim games, anything they like must be a sim game. It is a nice tight circle of impenetrable rhetoric that goes nowhere.

Rules light is a pretty subjective term. I think there are roughly : heavy, medium, light and minimalist RPGs. I would say 1-2 page RPGs is more on minimalist side. If we are just talking core rules, not rest of book (spells, monsters, etc), I think like 2-8 pages rules is rules light. But page count alone doesn’t really capture it.

For D&D early versions of basic strike me as rules light (not rules streamlined but rules light). AD&D I would say is not rules light, but certainly lighter than most of the post TSR editions

Rules light is neither good or bad IMO. I personally tend to fluctuate between rules light and rules medium

Simulation is a weird term. I don’t use it myself. Can’t stand the term but often find my style gets labeled that for whatever reason. It seems in past couple of years some gamers have actively embraced the label (but I think they use it differently than I would)

 

[payn]

Rules light is a pretty subjective term. I think there are roughly : heavy, medium, light and minimalist RPGs. I would say 1-2 page RPGs is more on minimalist side. If we are just talking core rules, not rest of book (spells, monsters, etc), I think like 2-8 pages rules is rules light. But page count alone doesn’t really capture it.

For D&D early versions of basic strike me as rules light (not rules streamlined but rules light). AD&D I would say is not rules light, but certainly lighter than most of the post TSR editions

Rules light is neither good or bad IMO. I personally tend to fluctuate between rules light and rules medium

Simulation is a weird term. I don’t use it myself. Can’t stand the term but often find my style gets labeled that for whatever reason. It seems in past couple of years some gamers have actively embraced the label (but I think they use it differently than I would)

No, no, no. We do not need more than two categories for rules. Sorry, we just dont.

 

[Autumnal]

No, no, no. We do not need more than two categories for rules. Sorry, we just dont.

Of course we do. A game can be blue, or set in France, or use two or more types of dice, or be played on weekdays. But it must as a matter of good design be mostly - 51% or more, that is - about being just one of those four.

 

[payn]

Of course we do. A game can be blue, or set in France, or use two or more types of dice, or be played on weekdays. But it must as a matter of good design be mostly - 51% or more, that is - about being just one of those four.

None of that matter in rules complexity and/or quantity. Saying rules medium says nothing besides somebody is really trying not to let lite or heavy leave an impression on the quality. Don't make the same mistake as other folks in thinking value needs to be somehow represented in the quantity and/or complexity of a rule set. That element is not necessary because the quality of design can be judged independently in both lite and heavy rule sets.

 

[Bedrockgames]

No, no, no. We do not need more than two categories for rules. Sorry, we just dont.

People have been talking about rules medium for some time as a middle ground between the two. And I think there is a substantial difference between a 1 page RPG and a 40-100 page rules light RPG (we can call that two ends of the rules light spectrum if we want but there is a real distinction there I think).

 

[payn]

People have been talking about rules medium for some time as a middle ground between the two. And I think there is a substantial difference between a 1 page RPG and a 40-100 page rules light RPG (we can call that two ends of the rules light spectrum if we want but there is a real distinction there I think).

40-100 pages lite??? No, Im sorry, I think these distinctions are not useful at all because everybody makes up a new one everyday.

 

[Bedrockgames]

40-10 pages lite??? No, Im sorry, I think these distinctions are not useful at all because everybody makes up a new one everyday.

I am sure the language has shifted over time and varies from place to place. I am not identifying 40 as the cut of. But just saying something int act range would strike me as rules light (not excluding a 30 or 20 page system from being rules light). Among gamers I play with something south of 100 pages is easily regarded as rules light (depending of course on how much of that is rules you must remember). I have played plenty of games I would call rule light that are 40-100 pages (provided that 40 to 100 isn't all core rules). I think using pamphlet RPGs or 2 page RPGs as the measure of light is not a very sound metric of that. And for me these aren't new distinctions. The only new one is minimalist RPG, but there have been countless terms for 1-2 page RPGs that aren't simply rules light (because rules light encompasses a lot more than games so exceedingly short). I just think there is something more novel about an RPG trying to operate inside a very tiny page count (say 1-4 pages), that makes it quite different from a rules light game that is an actual rulebook