D&D General What does the mundane high level fighter look like? [+]

[MichaelSomething]

Minion rules always seemed just designers giving up. "We want our heroes to be able to oneshot foes, but the normal combat rules we have designed and the hit points we are assigned to the enemies don't allow it. Well, lets just say that sometimes enemies arbitrarily have one hit point, problem solved!"

And it didn't feel satisfying to me as player either. It didn't make my character feel powerful, it just felt the system cheating for me.

Thanks to bounded accuracy, you can just throw 30 level one dudes at a high level person! Huzzah

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Thanks to bounded accuracy, you can just throw 30 level one dudes at a high level person! Huzzah

Indeed. And I greatly prefer that. No need for awkward kludges of having different stats for the same creature depending on their role in the "story", the system just works.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Indeed. And I greatly prefer that. No need for awkward kludges of having different stats for the same creature depending on their role in the "story", the system just works.

Yeah, that idea just goes against everything I want out of RPGs. Drove me nuts that was just the way it was over there.

 

[Manbearcat]

I don't understand anything anymore here.

How does 4e Minions feel like some novel form of D&D "cheating" or "artificial" when (a) the rules are right there in front of you (so the decision-tree you're interacting with is robust and entirely transparent such that tactical and strategic choice is preserved...where is the "cheating"?) and (b) we've had various brands of HD related "mook-gating rules" forever with AD&D 1e's Fighter, Paladin, Ranger vs less than 1 HD creatures and 2e's Heroic Fray rules (which both were derived from Chainmail) and the Sleep and Prismatic Spray spells and plenty of other things that don't just pop off the top of my head I'm sure.

What is even happening here? 4e was "artificial and video gamey (or whatever)" but chugging potions by the palette like Gauntlet or Diablo in 5e or Healing Wandomatics in 3.x are both totally legit and immersive?

I guess I'm just one of those "Usual Suspects," right? Yeah, the kind that (a) likes information worked off of to be somewhere approaching accurate/correct and with context (not misrepresented or improperly reduced) and (b) likes standards to be closer to organized around first principles than they are to being wholly arbitrary (while simultaneously tacitly representing that someone's feels are outgrowths of objective properties of something rather than idiosyncratic to the user and their particular cohort).

D&D mook-gating rules aren't novel because they've been there since the beginning, and they certainly aren't "cheating" in any of the various iterations I'm aware of them.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Really, "mundane" embraces only the stultifyingly everyday. Adventuring, itself, for instance, is not exactly a mundane activity.

Mundane in threads like this seems to be used to mean non-magical or not-supernatural, which should have a very different bar.

There’s a yawning chasm between a martial feat like firing an arrow through 2 axe handles and a 15’ radius decapitation attack.

If you think the latter qualifies as mundane, we’ll never reach accord on a mundane warrior design. We’re not even on the same continent.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Yes, Thor isn't an example.

But what happens when I come into contact with All You Can Eat Shrimp would be.

On that tangent, my grandfather and his best friend- both creoles- were on a business road trip and found a seafood buffet with all you can eat oysters on the half shell.

They got kicked out after finishing 4doz each and ordering another pair of trays. They didn’t have to pay, but they were blackballed.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

That's @Tony Vargas's point.

In "real life", it doesn't require magic to maim or decapitate with a sword blow, or to shoot a creature through the heart and thus kill it with a single arrow. But the D&D combat system doesn't make that possible (because it relies on, and only on, hit point attrition). Hence these things get made into magic items.

And so suddenly we're in a game world where the magic-user is better at killing things instantly than the fighter; and in which a fighter who can kill a foe with a single shot or blow is flagged as magic rather than "mundane".

Power Attack + Cleave + Great Cleave wasn’t magical. Earlier editions’ warriors sweeping through 1/2HD foes adjacent to them wasn’t magical.

Arrows of Slaying and Vorpal swords explicitly magical.

Same system.

And complaining that a wizard is better at killing things instantly is kinda like complaining a main battle tank is better at killing things instantly than an infantryman. They play different roles.

You want to complain about wizards vs warriors, look first at game designers who gave them spells for every situation.

 

[Gammadoodler]

There’s a yawning chasm between a martial feat like firing an arrow through 2 axe handles and a 15’ radius decapitation attack.

If you think the latter qualifies as mundane, we’ll never reach accord on a mundane warrior design. We’re not even on the same continent.

I'm a bit curious what the sticking point is. Is it the radius, the decapitation, or both?

Like decapitation has historically been a reasonably common result of melee martial combat using medieval weaponry. 15' is perhaps a bit much for a simple spinning attack with something like a sword, but with some footwork, it seems like an area someone could cover without enormous trouble. Maybe 10' is more reasonable?

And moreover, have we found a particular use case for an "arrow through axehandles" martial feat such that it should be a relevant benchmark for comparison.

 

[Gammadoodler]

There have been a few threads about this recently. One asking if people want a mundane high level fighter or a magic one, one asking how you close the gap between fighters and casters, etc. But I want to narrow the scope for this discussion to what a higher level mundane fighter would look like (note the "+" sign please).

Given: There is an option for a mundane fighter class. Mundane is defined as "no inherent magical ability built into the core class". "Magical ability" excludes being better at something a normal person can do (so jumping, strength, etc. are all on the table), but does include reality-bending supernatural effects, such as illusions, evocation, regeneration, teleporting, conjuration, etc.

When: The fighter advances through levels

Then: the following is a list of traits/features that a high level mundane fighter may gain.

• Stalwart: An attack on every low level opponent within range (those scenes where a lone warrior holds off an entire group of guards).
• Physical: Expertise in any check that is strength, agility, or endurance related.
• Athlete: Double speed, jumping distance, climbing, etc.
• Martial Mastery: Additional effectiveness with weapons and armor that other classes don't get. Perhaps mundane weapons bypassing magic resistance.
• Whirling Blades: Every ally within a certain radius of the fighter gets a partial AC buff, every enemy suffers some auto damage.
• Combat Will: Damage reduction, or perhaps temp HP, ignoring conditions, etc.
• Cavalier: Increased mount movement, stats, redirects, mounted damage, etc.
• Command: Motivating allies under their command for mechanical benefits (better defense, temp HP, additional combat skill, initiative bonuses, etc.)
• Weapon/Armor mastery: only a fighter has learned to unlock certain armor or weapon traits

What other things should probably be on this list if you were to create a mundane fighter?

Inflicting status effects. It's crazy that the folks twirling hammers, blades and whatnot cannot blind their opponents, or paralyze, stun etc. through mundane means.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Like decapitation has historically been a reasonably common result of melee martial combat using medieval weaponry.

If we're gonna get pedantic, no, it's actually wasn't Did it happen? Yes. But rarely. Almost impossible if the target was wearing armor. There's a reason why executioners wielded giant heavy curved swords or axes. Not to get grisly, but it takes a few hacks with a normal sword or hand axe to chop a head off when the other person is trying to stop you.