D&D General What does the mundane high level fighter look like? [+]

[hawkeyefan]

There's your problem right there, and why we'll never agree (and that's ok): the purpose of stats IMO is not to dictate how different creatures interact. It is to mechanically represent a creature in the setting. In order for that representation to be consistent, it can't change based on how powerful its opponent happens to be today.

I would argue that the one thing we can say with certainty about the purpose of stats is that they serve to tell us how things interact. Without that interaction, there is no need for stats, just descriptions. It's only for the game that we need mechanics, and the game only happens when PCs interact with other elements of the setting.

Things that aren't going to get attacked don't need armor classes, for instance. Things that are immobile don't need speeds. And so on.

No? I mean it is just the same ogre, but for arbitrary gamey reasons it is represented by different stats. Thus objective stats for representing the ogre no longer exist.

You keep insisting that they reasons are arbitrary despite everyone pointing out that they are not.

They aren't any more arbitrary than any other element of NPC design.

And he comes a decision of what's more important

Statistical consistency
OR
Fantasy satisfaction

With the high level fighter one of the biggest obstacles with it is that a lot of the fandom will not allow for the fantasy satisfaction to overcome statistical consistency.

The high level fighter should be able to one shot an ogre. But it would require exception-based rules. And for some people they do not want to inject these exception rules as base rules. Only as optional rules that the DM adds based on their own preferences, if they add it at all.

Exception based rules are for spells only!!! Otherwise, we need consistency or it'll be teh heat-death of the universe!!

 

[Minigiant]

No fair, I shouldnt have to be tied to a specific weapon, if I want to do it with a 1-inch punch, thats my choice because its cool!

Unarmed strikes are 1d8 at my table when I DM.
I'm not a lameo DM

 

[Oofta]

I believe the intent here is to suggest that the encounter includes 4d6 quantity of goblins.

So 14 goblins, which, at most, the fighter could attack around half of them on a turn assuming they are conveniently spaced.

At 7 hp a pop (CR 1/4 goblin), max modifier+basically any static damage bonus means any hit would indeed kill the goblins.

It does mean that the fighter is wasting a ton of damage on overkilling some goblins that could be going into the tarrasque (This is neither here nor there, as the same would be true of minion).

But here's the thing. That 7 hp goblin was pretty one-shottable at level 1. A +3 modifier + dueling fighting style means it only survived with a 1 on the damage roll 19 levels ago.

So let's look at the advancement from level 1 to level 20. At level 1, just starting out, a fighter can likely kill 1 goblins (assuming hits a hit). At level 20, at the pinnacle of their adventuring career, with an action surge, they can certainly kill (on hit) an incremental 7 more more goblins at level 20 on a turn that they could not kill at level 1.

That works out to..1 additional CR 1/4 creature a fighter can take out a turn (with action surge)..every 2.5 levels.

Is the heroic journey people should expect for their fighters, from being able to kill 1 goblin when they're first starting out to being able to kill 8 goblins at peak 'heroes of the realm' physical prowess?

Goblins are probably a bad example for this exercise as they actually are one-shottable. What is the highest CR creature a fighter can reliably one shot at level 20 that they couldn't one-shot at level 1.

There are optional cleave rules in the DMG that, if you take a monster from unhurt to 0 and your attack would have hit an enemy within melee range you can carry over the damage. It's what I'd consider using if I were setting up that kind of scenario and didn't want to do my own custom house rule. The only time it's come up in my game was with zombies and for those I created a custom swarm for it instead.

 

[Oofta]

No buddy. I've said it now 4 times.

The problem isn't fighter.

It's WOTC being lazy with Constitution and making as an HP Inflation device to make the stat matter.

+CON mod to HP was a mistake.

There are many way to make CON than inflating HP. Only WOTC Era D&D does this.

So the problem is with a core assumption of the game. Which is what I said.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

No, but it is undesired by some.

I mean,, it SHOULD be desired by old school players. 1E Ogres had about 19 HP and high level fighters using a 2 hander were hitting for 3d6+10 or so (gauntlets of ogre power, +2 sword, specialization). 5E fighters are chumps in comparison.

Making them minions just reduces the busywork.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I mean,, it SHOULD be desired by old school players. 1E Ogres had about 19 HP and high level fighters using a 2 hander were hitting for 3d6+10 or so (gauntlets of ogre power, +2 sword, specialization).

1-12 for a longsword if you aspired to a nice collection of magical swords, y'know, statistically by the treasure tables.

 

[Scribe]

Unarmed strikes are 1d8 at my table when I DM.
I'm not a lameo DM

Well then you already have this solved.

 

[Minigiant]

So the problem is with a core assumption of the game. Which is what I said.

Less an assumption and more a calculation.

4e was printed with inflated HP higher than what was desired. Same with 5e.

5e sought to make low level PCs not squishy and no prone to accidentally unlucky instant death. In doing so, they inflated HP past 1st level.

I mean more than a couple people say 5e PCs are a bit too tough. I'm just saying monsters are too.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

1-12 for a longsword if you aspired to a nice collection of magical swords, y'know, statistically by the treasure tables.

We had plenty of both. 1e/2e treasure tables and published adventures had massive amounts of magic items, despite the wierd modern notion that magic items were somehow rare and special. Like, our hireling's hirelings had more gear than most 5E PC's will ever see.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Less an assumption and more a calculation.

$e was printed with inflated HP higher than what was desired. Same with 5e.

5e sought to make low level PCs not squishy and no prone to accidentally unlucky instant death. In doing so, they inflated HP past 1st level.

I mean more than a couple people say 5e PCs are a bit too tough. I'm just saying monsters are too.

But you're pretty much alone in this. And I think you're simply wrong.