D&D General D&D tries to be a little of everything, and that's its secret strength (and weakness)

[DEFCON 1]

If you are a DM who wants their fantasy RPG to run and play a certain way and you can hammer D&D 5E into that shape yourself and be happy... that's great, and exactly what you should do.

If you are a DM who wants to have a large playerbase at your fingertips so you have many options for players in your game in whatever style you choose to play, so you play D&D 5E and you put in the work to find those players to play in your style... that's great, and exactly what you should do.

However, If you are a DM who wants to play D&D in the way you most prefer, so you keep demanding WotC change the baseline rules of 5E24 such that you get to play in the way you want AND you don't have to put in any work finding players because the baseline game will force all of them to play D&D your way.. then you can just go bugger off.

Posters here on EN World are always calling the WotC designers lazy because they refuse to build the game in the way the poster wants. And yet I'm claimed as the "toxic" one for calling them lazy right back for not putting in the work to find players that will play the game in the manner they want. Sure sounds like the pot calling the kettle black if you as me.

 

[BookTenTiger]

If you are a DM who wants their fantasy RPG to run and play a certain way and you can hammer D&D 5E into that shape yourself and be happy... that's great, and exactly what you should do.

If you are a DM who wants to have a large playerbase at your fingertips so you have many options for players in your game in whatever style you choose to play, so you play D&D 5E and you put in the work to find those players to play in your style... that's great, and exactly what you should do.

However, If you are a DM who wants to play D&D in the way you most prefer, so you keep demanding WotC change the baseline rules of 5E24 such that you get to play in the way you want AND you don't have to put in any work finding players because the baseline game will force all of them to play D&D your way.. then you can just go bugger off.

Posters here on EN World are always calling the WotC designers lazy because they refuse to build the game in the way the poster wants. And yet I'm claimed as the "toxic" one for calling them lazy right back for not putting in the work to find players that will play the game in the manner they want. Sure sounds like the pot calling the kettle black if you as me.

It seems like calling people lazy is considered unkind, whether it's WotC designers or posters at EN World.

 

[BookTenTiger]

When you say, "D&D", do you mean, "the version of D&D 5e currently published by Wizards of the Coast"? Because different versions of the game have leaned one way or another towards incentivizing different play styles, both in game published by TSR or WotC (very different from each other) and various 3pp games related to versions of D&D.

I specifically made this a "General D&D" topic because I want to invite the perspective of people who experienced older editions of D&D. Though I started playing at the end of AD&D, I know 3e onward best.

I definitely feel like 3e was built with the philosophy of being an engine that could adapt to just about anything. 4e was its own beast, but 5e definitely straddles a lot of lines- a little of this, a little of that... Maybe the best example of this is the two fighter subclasses of Champion and Battlemaster, since they are designed as "easy" and "more complex" classes. It's an example of asynchronous design that seems to be trying to satisfy many different many different potential audiences.

 

[DEFCON 1]

It seems like calling people lazy is considered unkind, whether it's WotC designers or posters at EN World.

As the dozens of posters who do it here all the time do not seem concerned about being unkind... (especially considering they also call the D&D designers "stupid", "uninspired", "lacking fire", or "only concerned with making money")... I do not know why I should be expected to feel any differently.

 

[Shardstone]

I disagree. I think at a certain point people should consider other games. Some people seem to really hate core concepts of D&D, and no system can be stretched to do everything for everyone. Yes D&D can be stretched and morphed into something significantly different, I think that's one of it's strengths. But you still have to accept some of the core concepts. For example D&D is never going to be as good a narrative game as a PbtA game. So if a Dungeon World campaign is what you really want, you're better off playing that game instead. Because while you can add narrative elements to a game, and many people do, it will always

Nothing, no game ever invented, can be the right thing for everyone under the sun. There are a ton of options like Level Up if you want a crunchier game. You can play space fantasy using the same core concepts and structures with Esper Genesis. But ultimately you're still playing D&D, with all of it's limitations and assumptions. The game is flexible, but every game has it's breaking point.

I have played many D&D games that took great concepts from games like Monsterhearts and ran just fine. I reject any assertion that every game has a breaking point. Yes, you can argue it morphs into a different game, but most PbtA games have a handful of rules at best. It isn't too much to add some of the best ideas from other games to D&D.

 

[Shardstone]

The thing that gets me about " I want to turn 5e into WFRP" or whatever isn't that it can't be done.

It's just why?

Just go play WFRP it's waayyyy less work on your part to just read that and use that thing made to do the grimdark thing.

There are things about WFRP 4E and previous games I don't like, and for people who are comfortable modding the 5E chassis, the work isn't bad or unfun. In fact, it feels great to create the game that I want from D&D by adding other game's concepts to it. But I'll say your example here is a little silly. No one is turning a game into a carbon copy clone of another. Even if they want to be in that world, there are many reasons why people might prefer a classbased game like D&D to a lifepath/profession-based game like WFRP. I find that when people provide their own examples of my arguments, they usually choose the stupidest sounding example and try to fit my argument into it, when that's not what I'm arguing at all.

 

[Shardstone]

I would say fixing D&D more to your liking and playing a different game are both viable options. It depends of which is more appealing to you. What seems less viable is, "complain on a fan site until WotC fixes it for you". Fix it yourself or play something else.

Agreed. And what is also less viable is just telling me to play another game when I've signaled that I want to modify my current chosen game into something else.

 

[nevin]

As the dozens of posters who do it here all the time do not seem concerned about being unkind... (especially considering they also call the D&D designers "stupid", "uninspired", "lacking fire", or "only concerned with making money")... I do not know why I should be expected to feel any differently.

the other guy did it so it's ok defense. weak sauce dude.

 

[Oofta]

I have played many D&D games that took great concepts from games like Monsterhearts and ran just fine. I reject any assertion that every game has a breaking point. Yes, you can argue it morphs into a different game, but most PbtA games have a handful of rules at best. It isn't too much to add some of the best ideas from other games to D&D.

Technically you can play chess in a D&D game, doesn't mean it's the best option. There are some people on this forum do nothing but complain about the game and how it's badly designed. I think many of them would be better off playing a different game.

If you have to have more than a page or so of house rules to make the game what you want or if all you do is complain about how you don't like how the game works I think you would be better off with other games.

 

[overgeeked]

Yeah, that makes sense. I sometimes lose sight of the fact that some people have to pitch and run public games with strangers.

That's about the only reason I can think of though.

Or even close friends who absolutely refuse to learn or invest in a different game than D&D 5E.