D&D (2024) Playtest 8 Spell Discussion

[Maxperson]

The "mystic words" include "Shhhhh", "Somniaro", "Sleep", "Mmm-mm-mmmm".

These words dont imply a shared language.

They are a kind of language, because magic can "translate" the unique idiolect of one caster into the unique idiolect of an other caster.

The Bard playing the flute or dancing silently or the Fey or the psionic manifesting innately, has nothing to do with Verbal, anyway.

RAW says you are wrong. There is not a shared language, but all of those mystic words share the same mystical tones to make sleep. You don't get to use "Shhhh," "Somniaro," "Sleep," and "Mmm-mm-mmmm" unless they share the common mystical sleep sounds. You can change RAW with a house rule, but you cannot ignore it for this discussion about RAW.

 

[Yaarel]

RAW says you are wrong. There is not a shared language, but all of those mystic words share the same mystical tones to make sleep. You don't get to use "Shhhh," "Somniaro," "Sleep," and "Mmm-mm-mmmm" unless they share the common mystical sleep sounds. You can change RAW with a house rule, but you cannot ignore it for this discussion about RAW.

The above bolded phrases contradict each other. Tonality is a feature of language.

Each caster arrives at a unique "mystic word", to cast Sleep. That is why each spellbook is unintelligible without a magical translation.

 

[Maxperson]

@Yaarel

Here's an example. Wizard #1 says, "Somnaliomus" for his sleep spell. Wizard #2 says, "Makalithsom" for his. And wizard #3 uses, "Balsomicanthium" for hers. the words can vary, but they have to be mystic*, and use the particular** combination of sounds. If wizard #4 tries "Sleeeeeeeep" it will fail.

*Most spells require the chanting of mystic words.

**...rather, the particular combination of sounds, with specific pitch and resonance, sets the threads of magic in motion.

 

[Maxperson]

The above bolded phrases contradict each other. Tonality is a feature of language.

No they don't. Being a feature of something =/= a thing. My car features the color green and so does the tree outside. My car is not a tree.

 

[Yaarel]

@Yaarel

Here's an example. Wizard #1 says, "Somnaliomus" for his sleep spell. Wizard #2 says, "Makalithsom" for his. And wizard #3 uses, "Balsomicanthium" for hers. the words can vary, but they have to be mystic*, and use the particular** combination of sounds. If wizard #4 tries "Sleeeeeeeep" it will fail.

*Most spells require the chanting of mystic words.

**...rather, the particular combination of sounds, with specific pitch and resonance, sets the threads of magic in motion.

Why would you assume that every Wizard must speak Latin?!

There is no shared language. And different cultures would differ anyway.

 

[Chaosmancer]

The Monster Manual brings a "monster of the week" genre to the game.

If the 2024 Players Handbook has all of the rules for the Beast creature type, and even rules for creating monster statblocks for NPCs of the Humanoid creature type, for friends and hirelings, then the adventure would be people-oriented, with struggles among the Humanoids.

In other words, moving "core" Beast and Humanoid to the 2024 Players Handbook, means this book is all one needs to play a complete game of D&D.

Meanwhile a later Bestiary book can expand in more detail the vary many different kinds of Beasts, and a Rogues Gallery can expand the diversity of Humanoids. Plus, each official setting will add their own distinctive Humanoids and Beasts as well.

Sure, you could do that. But they didn't, and they don't intend to, and they shouldn't.

The game goes from level 1 to level 20. You need a monster manual to cover that gap, unless you plan on only fighting other PCs. Now, people can homebrew anything, sure, but that is a lot of extra work. Or they would need to make the PHB unreasonably large.

 

[Maxperson]

Why would you assume that every Wizard must speak Latin?!

So you not understand what an example is? Make up any other four words and have them share tones/sounds. I don't really care. What they cannot be by RAW are four different words that don't have a common shared tone/sound.

There is no shared language. And different cultures would differ anyway.

Repeating this won't make it apply to what I'm saying. Wind chimes have specific tones. Are you arguing that they are a language because they have tones? I don't think you would argue that, so it's equally inappropriate for you to keep misrepresenting the mystic words as language when it's not language. It's only tones/sounds.

 

[Maxperson]

Sure, you could do that. But they didn't, and they don't intend to, and they shouldn't.

The game goes from level 1 to level 20. You need a monster manual to cover that gap, unless you plan on only fighting other PCs. Now, people can homebrew anything, sure, but that is a lot of extra work. Or they would need to make the PHB unreasonably large.

You don't need a MM ever. You can in fact just make up monsters via the DMG guidelines or just make stuff up and not buy the DMG or MM. Neither of those two books are needed to run the game. All you need is in the PHB.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Get the DMG PDF and do a search for guidelines, will you?

Sure. 38 results. Rule had 115. Am I supposed to be shocked that a book can contain more than one type of thing? Did you think the DMG was too small to have multiple types of text?

Of course your fallacious depiction of my argument is fallacious. It can't be otherwise. Here are the facts.

1) All the rules you need to run the game are in the PHB.
2) Any rules outside the PHB in the splatbooks are rules that a) you don't need to run the game, 2) can't be assumed to be in any game being played, c) are worthless in a discussion for how the game is played.
3) guidelines are often written in the same tone as a rule, but because they are explicitly guidelines, are not rules. These would be things like the burrowing guidelines in the MM and the XP guidelines in the DMG.

If by "need" you mean that the rule of "roll a d20, maybe add a number" are in the PHB, then I've never denied that. But you don't need any rules for paladins or wizards to run the game. Don't need rules for difficult terrain or starvation to run the game. You can tell me I'm wrong, that those things are essential, but then you are going to tell me that the rules for foraging in the DMG aren't essential, or the rules for terrain types in the DMG aren't essential.

The Core Rule Books are not Splatbooks. That should be obvious.

Burrowing is not a guideline, it is a rule for a movement type. You've done nothing to explain why it is a guideline except declare that it must be because it is in a different core rulebook than the PHB.

It must exist because it's RAW. Go read the PHB rules on the verbal component.

That section of the PHB does not state the existence of any new languages. I could use Primordial, Celestial, and Infernal for that mystic words and it would be perfectly acceptable.

It also does not state anything about someone instantly being able to recognize this mysterious mystic language regardless of their known languages or training.

 

[Maxperson]

Sure. 38 results. Rule had 115. Am I supposed to be shocked that a book can contain more than one type of thing? Did you think the DMG was too small to have multiple types of text?

::sigh:: You didn't read either those results, did you.

If by "need" you mean that the rule of "roll a d20, maybe add a number" are in the PHB, then I've never denied that. But you don't need any rules for paladins or wizards to run the game. Don't need rules for difficult terrain or starvation to run the game. You can tell me I'm wrong, that those things are essential, but then you are going to tell me that the rules for foraging in the DMG aren't essential, or the rules for terrain types in the DMG aren't essential.

You don't need paladin OR wizard, but you do need class(es). You don't need elf or human, but you do need race(s). The rules you need to run the game are in the PHB. You can chop some out, alter others and add in new ones completely, but you cannot change the fact that the rules needed to run the game are in the PHB.

You are also not everyone, so you need to stop viewing this as being about you. YOU might not need the starvation and difficult terrain rules, but they are there because the game of D&D needs to have rules like that.

The Core Rule Books are not Splatbooks. That should be obvious.

I've never said or implied otherwise.

Burrowing is not a guideline, it is a rule for a movement type. You've done nothing to explain why it is a guideline except declare that it must be because it is in a different core rulebook than the PHB.

No.............it's.................not. You don't to make a guideline into a rule just because you want it to be. WotC decided that the rules needed for the game were in the PHB. THEY are the ones who got to make that decision. If you design a game, you can decide for your game that your monster book is full of rules.

That section of the PHB does not state the existence of any new languages. I could use Primordial, Celestial, and Infernal for that mystic words and it would be perfectly acceptable.

Show me where those are mystical languages with mystical words. RAW requires mystical words using specific sounds.

It also does not state anything about someone instantly being able to recognize this mysterious mystic language regardless of their known languages or training.

It's called the Arcana skill. Everyone has it. Those who counterspell are more versed in the mystical tones, because they use them constantly and were trained or intuitively(in the case of sorcerers) came to know them. You cannot sneak a verbal spell without some sort of specific beats general ability like sorcerers have.