D&D 5E The Perils of Dump Stats

[Swarmkeeper]

In a game this week I had my PC die and another player's die from the Vargouille due to both of us have CHA 9 scores. We failed our saves during the suprise round, the Vargouilles had initiative, and each of the two kissed one of the PCs.

Even though we were 5th level, we had no caster who could cast Remove Curse, and the villiage priest didn't have it. It was night time, and the sun wasn't coming soon enough to help us. The priest didn't have time to take a long rest to help us since we lost 1 point of CHA each hour, 7 hours later we both had CHA 2, died, and our heads deteched to become Vargouilles.

I've known PCs with STR dumps to fear Shadows since that can kill, but it's has never happened.

Have any of you had a PC die because of the dumped stat?

Both Wizard and Barbarian were incapacitated at the time of the Abyssal Curse? Just as combat was starting?

 

[Ruin Explorer]

In a game this week I had my PC die and another player's die from the Vargouille due to both of us have CHA 9 scores. We failed our saves during the suprise round, the Vargouilles had initiative, and each of the two kissed one of the PCs.

Even though we were 5th level, we had no caster who could cast Remove Curse, and the villiage priest didn't have it. It was night time, and the sun wasn't coming soon enough to help us. The priest didn't have time to take a long rest to help us since we lost 1 point of CHA each hour, 7 hours later we both had CHA 2, died, and our heads deteched to become Vargouilles.

I've known PCs with STR dumps to fear Shadows since that can kill, but it's has never happened.

Have any of you had a PC die because of the dumped stat?

I wouldn't call 9 a dump stat. That's normal array, you're basically required to have a stat at that level. In 5E, the only real way you can even have a real dump-stat is with either dice-based stats or points-based ones. And even then, unless you're dumping something obviously dumb like CON, it doesn't feel like the right term.

STR and Shadows is the main danger I've seen, but the last PC I saw nearly die to that was mine, and they were a STR 16 Paladin who got hit with 3 x 4 point STR drains in a row leaving him one 1d4 roll away from death, but to be fair, I barely had any HP left either! Luckily the other PCs dealt with them.

I've seen Vargouilles kill people and the head fly off in 5E, but turns out the DM was running that by his own rules, because he had anyone who died when they were cursed instantly "go Varg", it wasn't the full curse in action.

I haven't seen anyone dump CON since early 3E (even in 2E it was very rare), but that is a reliable way to get killed or just downed so much it gets annoying and you re-roll.

 

[ezo]

Both Wizard and Barbarian were incapacitated at the time of the Abyssal Curse? Just as combat was starting?

Unfortunately, the party was surprised and the Vargouille's used their Stunning Shriek during the 1st round. The DM also rolled high enough to beat the initiative of everyone but the Barbarian.

Both failed their DC 12 Wisdom saves (Wizard had +4 and Barbarian got +1) so the Shriek stunned them, which was unlucky.

Next round the Barbarian didn't act due to the stun.

The Vargouilles then used the Kiss on the two stunned PCS, who failed their DC 12 CHA saves (both had a -1) and were cursed, so again bad luck.

The chance for the Barbarian failing both saves was 30%, and just 21% for the Wizard. And for BOTH barely 6%.

So, combat just started and pretty bad luck. Especially considering the time limit and low CHA scores led to the PCs' deaths from the curse.

 

[ezo]

I wouldn't call 9 a dump stat. That's normal array, you're basically required to have a stat at that level. In 5E, the only real way you can even have a real dump-stat is with either dice-based stats or points-based ones. And even then, unless you're dumping something obviously dumb like CON, it doesn't feel like the right term.

Maybe you wouldn't call it that, but IME most players call anything with a negative modifier a dump stat.

After all, unless you are rolling in order, you always get to choose where you put your low score(s), thus you are dumping on those.

I've seen Vargouilles kill people and the head fly off in 5E, but turns out the DM was running that by his own rules, because he had anyone who died when they were cursed instantly "go Varg", it wasn't the full curse in action.

Isn't that how it works? Or do you mean they died at 0 hp or something, not specifically from the curse, itself?

 

[James Gasik]

It's all relative. My personal sensibilities have a hard time accepting a 12 as a "dump stat". To me if your lowest stat is a +1 you're a very lucky character!

Oh I'm not complaining, but it's all relative, isn't it? I still had one ability score lower than the rest. Wherever I chose to put it would be my "dump stat". If I have no proficiency in anything that ability score uses, I'm only slightly better off than someone who has a lower score.

So when (not if) I have to make, say, a DC 16 Charisma save, that +1 is better than a -1, but I have no illusions about it saving me.

D&D has always been predicated on the idea that you're practically guaranteed to have a low stat somewhere, it's just the price of doing business. Once in a 2e game, I managed to roll 6 14's. Unfortunately, given the way AD&D was designed, I had no real strengths, and the only of my ability scores to even give me any real bonus was Wisdom, so I made a Cleric to claim those 2 bonus cure light wounds slots (because really, is there another 1st level Cleric spell? lol).

Now, when the character died, I can't say it was because I lacked a strength (other than maybe I'd have lived with more damage output, or more AC, or more hit points, or another bonus spell slot), but not having a weakness didn't save me either.

 

[overgeeked]

Have any of you had a PC die because of the dumped stat?

Yep. Made a monk who dumped INT when playing Dungeon of the Mad Mage. Second monsters we encountered were the intellect devourers. You can guess what happened next. Got to play the character for maybe 10 minutes. It was hilarious.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

Unfortunately, the party was surprised and the Vargouille's used their Stunning Shriek during the 1st round. The DM also rolled high enough to beat the initiative of everyone but the Barbarian.

Ah - makes sense.

Both failed their DC 12 Wisdom saves (Wizard had +4 and Barbarian got +1) so the Shriek stunned them, which was unlucky.

Next round the Barbarian didn't act due to the stun.

The Vargouilles then used the Kiss on the two stunned PCS, who failed their DC 12 CHA saves (both had a -1) and were cursed, so again bad luck.

The chance for the Barbarian failing both saves was 30%, and just 21% for the Wizard. And for BOTH barely 6%.

The chance of them both failing those two DC 12 saves and, prior to that, both failing a WIS(Perception) check vs the Vargs' DEX(Stealth) check to become surprised and the DM rolling highest initiative? We're getting down to very low probabilities now. But such is the game when faced with the fickle d20.

So, combat just started and pretty bad luck. Especially considering the time limit and low CHA scores led to the PCs' deaths from the curse.

Three subpar rolls in a row for both characters. With no Remove Curse in sight and 7+ hours before daylight. Bad luck for sure!

 

[ezo]

Bad luck for sure!

Yep, it was like a "perfect storm" for PC death...

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Or do you mean they died at 0 hp or something, not specifically from the curse, itself?

Yeah they got killed in combat.

Maybe you wouldn't call it that, but IME most players call anything with a negative modifier a dump stat.

I mean, I think that's just making the term meaningless myself - though not as meaningless as calling a 12 a "dump stat" lol.

Certainly the title of the thread seems off in that context - if you can die on a 9 you can probably die on a 13 in most situations or even higher. It's not really "the perils of dump stats", it's "the perils of stat drains".

 

[Xetheral]

Well, unless you are rolling stats, 8 is the lowest you'll (generally) start with. So, since 8 and 9 both have a -1 modifier, I consider it a dump stat. I certainly could have had a 10 if I wanted, but I needed the point elsewhere---and it cost me! LOL.

How much did you fail the save by? Unless it was by exactly 1, having a 9 CHA instead of a 10 didn't cost you.

Ignoring your specific roll and looking at it in the abstract, even if you'd had a 20 CHA your saving throw would have only been 6 points higher. That means that there was at most only a 30% chance that your choice on how to allocate your stats could have affected the outcome of this saving throw.

So don't blame yourself! It was bad luck that got your character, not bad stat allocation.