D&D 5E The Perils of Dump Stats

[DEFCON 1]

I've always found the saving throw system to be a very nice counter-balance to the hit point system. If direct damage always seemed too easy to mitigate (due to high character HP and low monster damage, plus easier Cure Wound use)... having those PCs also with bad saving throws would allow for more potential deadliness at hand. I don't find that to be an issue, so much as a boon myself.

If I'm not able to easily challenge the Totem of the Bear Barbarian through hit point attrition, I'm glad to know I can occasionally throw some saving throw effects at him that he'll have a harder time managing. And what's nice is that because these sorts of effects are not ubiquitous and only appear in certain scenarios on certain creatures, I am able to pick and choose when to dish them out.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

The game is purposefully designed so that you are useless in 3-4 saves, and increasingly so as the levels increase.

Which is why we need to go back to Reflex, Will and Fortitude, and or at minimum have half proficiency in off-saves.

Sorry not sorry to the four or so effects in the entire game that have Intelligence saves.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

Which is why we need to go back to Reflex, Will and Fortitude

Definitely. There was absolutely nothing wrong with those.

If they want to keep all six, then they should at least make the minor saves just handle minor negative effects (like Str would be knockdown/pushback, no restrain effects). But, they did things this way so that casters could know there is always a weak spot available.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Which is why we need to go back to Reflex, Will and Fortitude, and or at minimum have half proficiency in off-saves.

Sorry not sorry to the four or so effects in the entire game that have Intelligence saves.

Nope. We don't need to go there. Rather spread saves better. And revise spells.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Definitely. There was absolutely nothing wrong with those.

A lot of wrong with them. Rather go back to AD&D saves.

If they want to keep all six, then they should at least make the minor saves just handle minor negative effects (like Str would be knockdown/pushback, no restrain effects). But, they did things this way so that casters could know there is always a weak spot available.

Nothing wrong with this idea. But then use those minor saves consitently whenever those status effects or spell types happen.

Str: resist grapples, trips, push backs, restrains (sorry, I disagree with your assesment here)
Dex: reduce damage from area effects, dodge rays.
Con: resist poison, paralyzation, cold effects you can't dodge.
Int: save vs illusions, save vs spells that attacks your intellect itself.
Wis: resist spells that try to controll you or stun or hold you.
Cha: save vs charm or fear.

Or something like this.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

A lot of wrong with them. Rather go back to AD&D saves.

Well, yes, I'd prefer those, they were more thematic. But I think that's a bridge a little too far back for most people.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

A lot of wrong with them. Rather go back to AD&D saves.

Nothing wrong with this idea. But then use those minor saves consitently whenever those status effects or spell types happen.

Str: resist grapples, trips, push backs, restrains (sorry, I disagree with your assesment here)
Dex: reduce damage from area effects, dodge rays.
Con: resist poison, paralyzation, cold effects you can't dodge.
Int: save vs illusions, save vs spells that attacks your intellect itself.
Wis: resist spells that try to controll you or stun or hold you.
Cha: save vs charm or fear.

Or something like this.

AD&D saves made no damn sense. If I get hit with a poison spell from a staff, what do I roll against?

F/R/W made sense and it was easy to figure out what you would roll against. We don't need forced grid symmetry of 6 stats 6 saves.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

AD&D saves made no damn sense. If I get hit with a poison spell from a staff, what do I roll against?

Maybe. Left to right... Or right to left..

F/R/W made sense and it was easy to figure out what you would roll against. We don't need forced grid symmetry of 6 stats 6 saves.

I don't need arbitrary F/R/W

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Maybe. Left to right... Or roght to left..

Pretty much all of AD&D was whatever off the cuff ruling scribbled on a pizza box survived being thrown away. Look, I loved it when I was 10, but I'm not 10 anymore, and expect a bit coherence in game design. AD&D is the worst of all the save options.

I don't need arbitrary F/R/W

Lol. No, U.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Pretty much all of AD&D was whatever off the cuff ruling scribbled on a pizza box survived being thrown away. Look, I loved it when I was 10, but I'm not 10 anymore, and expect a bit coherence in game design. AD&D is the worst of all the save options.

While you might have some points there, I only understand AD&D design decisions in hindsight:

What I deemed annoying mechanisms were actually there to discourage powergaming, chosing always the best stats.
It starts with rolling attributes and goes on with finding spells and magic items or having to roll if you can learn spells at all. So even if you try to always build the same character, you can't.

I don't say, every rule made sense or was coherent. But all were there for a reason. And what happens if you throw them overboard is seen when you look at 3e's optimizer forums or discussions here how wizards dominate everything, which is not actually wizards, but just a list of 5 to 10 spells that are leftovers from 3e mostly.