D&D (2024) The Great Nerf to High Level Martials: The New Grapple Rules

[Yaarel]

With training in Athletics.

Add the proficiency to the base 1 damage to each Unarmed Strike. Thus at each tier the damage increases.

Levels 1−4: 3 damage (or d4)
Levels 5−8: 4 damage (or d6)
Levels 9−12: 5 damage (or d8)
Levels 13−16: 6 damage (or d10)
Levels 17−20: 7 damage (or d12)

 

[Maxperson]

By "effective", I mean optimal.

Those are two completely different things. Conflating them like that will just lead to confusion. Fighters don't deserve unarmed to be optimal at level 1. It's not intended to be a fighter things. Weapons are their thing. Optimal unarmed combat should be monk only.

When the Fighter class offers a list of weapons to pick from, they need to be real choices, not "traps".

There are no trap weapons. Every weapon on the list is effective in 5e.

The base damage of the Fighter bodyweapon must be high enough to make it an effective choice instead of a greatsword or polearm.

No. Fighters are the weapon masters. Not mundane damage masters. The class is all about weapons and armor. The class does not deserve or warrant optimal unarmed combat damage outside of maaaaybe a subclass.

 

[Mirrorrorrim]

I bolded the relevant bit. It's like it's not automatic at all.

My response was to your claim "Until the casters use one of the many spells without a save..."

Grappling spells are not automatic successes. There is going to be an attack roll or a saving throw. What are the many spells that inflict immediate grapples or other status effects without a saving throw or an attack roll? I'm very curious what you're trying to differentiate here.

 

[Horwath]

With training in Athletics.

Add the proficiency to the base 1 damage to each Unarmed Strike. Thus at each tier the damage increases.

Levels 1−4: 3 damage (or d4)
Levels 5−8: 4 damage (or d6)
Levels 9−12: 5 damage (or d8)
Levels 13−16: 6 damage (or d10)
Levels 17−20: 7 damage (or d12)

can I get double that with expertise?


even 1d4 is too generous to give unarmed strike(for humans), it's the damage is a dagger ffs.
base damage of 1 is fine. Monk can have 1d4 if we really need it to have it.

would you rather fight someone with fists or with daggers?

 

[Yaarel]

Unarmed combat − mixed martial arts − especially in the context of wrestling, is an important genre that D&D needs to handle well. Especially the Fighter class needs this archetype to be a solid and optimal choice for players looking to find it.

The Monk class is Dexterity, and differs significantly from this bodyweapon Strength Fighter concept.

 

[Vikingkingq]

One, Strength Monks are also a thing.

Two, why does the Fighter need the wrestling archetype? Why not put it in the unarmed combat class instead?

 

[mellored]

Unarmed combat − mixed martial arts − especially in the context of wrestling, is an important genre that D&D needs to handle well. Especially the Fighter class needs this archetype to be a solid and optimal choice for players looking to find it.

The Monk class is Dexterity, and differs significantly from this bodyweapon Strength Fighter concept.

Anyone with Str is now good at grappling.

And unarmed attacks still get +Str to damage.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Anyone with Str is now good at grappling.

And unarmed attacks still get +Str to damage.

Best change of the playtest. Honestly.

Waiting for people to multiclass into monk 1 to get dex based grappling. That said, I think it is a great ability and the monk needs that.

 

[mellored]

Best change of the playtest. Honestly.

Waiting for people to multiclass into monk 1 to get dex based grappling. That said, I think it is a great ability and the monk needs that.

Ehh...

I could see a fighter, barbarian, or paladin dipping for the bonus action grapple isn't bad. But still using Str.

Grapple forces enemies to attack you. So you want high defense to go along with it. And Str has higher defense, and main weapon damage if your not going shield.

If you want to drag people though zones, then just straight monk for the speed.

Bladesinger getting Dex+Int+Wis to AC might work.
Or Dance bard who gets extra unarmed attacks.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Ehh...

I could see a fighter, barbarian, or paladin dipping for the bonus action grapple isn't bad. But still using Str.

Grapple forces enemies to attack you. So you want high defense to go along with it. And Str has higher defense, and main weapon damage if your not going shield.

If you want to drag people though zones, then just straight monk for the speed.

Bladesinger getting Dex+Int+Wis to AC might work.
Or Dance bard who gets extra unarmed attacks.

Just to be clear: I really think grapple is spot on and I think that rule change will make it usable for casual gamers. Easy to understand and useful enough in some situations. Also as a DM that opens up great option for low level foes like zombies or so. I always used grabs with zombies. I guess, now it is quite a bit easier to pull off. Especially when used on an opportunity attack. So minions opportunity attacks are actually a threat.In the current version fighters shrug and say: "1d6+3 damage with a 30% chance, who cares". Now it is: "They have 30% chance to keep me in place"...

The second one was a bit sarcastic. Some people claim that dex is king, for everything. For fighters and even for paladins. So I thought optimizers would start multiclassing to still be able to grapple by multiclassing into lvl 1 monk.