D&D 5E Does/Should D&D Have the Player's Game Experience as a goal?

Imaro

Legend
So are you for or against transparency?

To be truthful... it's not that important to me either way. I have no real desire to study game design and if I did there are dedicated books on the subject. If you design a game I enjoy playing, I don't need to know why you made the choices you did (the choices are made at this point)... I'd be much more interested in you devoting that space to well designed modularity and options as oposed to designer notes and transparency.
 

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hawkeyefan

Legend
I don't see why the reasons behind rules matter to the vast majority of people who play. But I also don't see how they could possibly anticipate what people are going to change.

Like everyone, including the people that write the rules, typically the only way to know the impact is to playtest and find out.

If the game is designed to deliver a wide range of play experiences, then it should provide the means to deliver those experiences.

Would you agree or no?
 

hawkeyefan

Legend
To be truthful... it's not that important to me either way. I have no real desire to study game design and if I did there are dedicated books on the subject. If you design a game I enjoy playing, I don't need to know why you made the choices you did (the choices are made at this point)... I'd be much more interested in you devoting that space to well designed modularity and options as oposed to designer notes and transparency.

Sure… such modularity is what I’m talking about. Either provide such rules, or the means for users to make their own rules. Which would obviously necessitate providing guidance on how to do so effectively.
 

Imaro

Legend
Sure… such modularity is what I’m talking about. Either provide such rules, or the means for users to make their own rules. Which would obviously necessitate providing guidance on how to do so effectively.

The thing is I've found these with 3pp (along with some WotC products). I would think this was the purpose that 3pp were supposed to serve.

Edit: I also feel like transparency is being used in different ways by different posters in this thread.
 

Oofta

Legend
If the game is designed to deliver a wide range of play experiences, then it should provide the means to deliver those experiences.

Would you agree or no?
I would say it already does. That doesn't change my opinion of telling people how the sausage is made. Very few people care, and I don't see how it would make a difference.

It would be nice if the dev team could have a blog or safe space to talk about this stuff, and the do in interviews now and then. But considering the reactions they get when they do discuss stuff I understand why they're hesitant. At one point in the development of 5E they were considering a much more modular system and then changed their minds, something I consider the correct choice. Yet a decade later people still complain about the lack of modularity we were "promised". Yet we were never promised anything, it was an off the cuff remark in an interview. They can't win.

So no, I don't see how explaining why they did or didn't do something would make much of a difference.
 

Clint_L

Hero
There's a difference between "open-ended" design and "completely lacking in any guidance whatsoever".

See, what baffles me is this resistance to having transparency in the first place. In a transparent system, you can easily ignore elements because it's clearly explained what the elements are. In 5e, where so much is simply dumped on the DM, there's no guidance whatsoever. Again, why is a Cloak of Protection uncommon while a Ring of Protection rare? Why is a Potion of Superior Healing considered the same as a Belt of Hill Giant Strength?
I dunno; change the rarities if they don't make sense to you. These are fantasy elements. Why are goblins smaller than ogres?
That other folks are better DM's than me goes without saying. I get that you folks are absolutely perfect in your games and never have any problems at all. That's fantastic for you. I am totally jealous.

For me? I have all sorts of problems. Every time I turn around, magic items, vague mechanics, and opaque game systems are biting me on the ass. To the point where my next campaign will be run very similarly to Organized Play - my players get to choose the PHB+1 for their characters. That's it. The last three campaigns I've run are a shopping list of broken characters and broken elements. All because the 5e system doesn't bother actually explaining anything. Just dumps it all into my lap.

I miss the days when I could actually trust the system to do what it says on the tin.
You seemed to take my comment personally. I wasn't replying to you, specifically. In fact, I wasn't responding to you at all. But I apologize if I implied that I was judging anyone's DMing abilities, that was not my intent, at all.

I certainly am not perfect in my DMing, and I didn't intend to imply that, either. Far from it! That wasn't my point. I don't think this has anything to do with DM skill and more to do with a preferred style of gameplay. As a DM, I like it when I don't feel constrained by the rules. That's probably why I love Dread so much; with almost no rules besides "pull a jenga piece" the game is able to flow very well.

My personal distaste for 4e comes specifically from the fact that I do find it to be a much more constrained version of the game. My personal taste for 5e is because it is much more hands off about running the game from the rules, which was a design intent. There's no right or wrong here, but, given that this is a commercial product, preferences matter from WotC's perspective, and I think the success of 5e speaks for itself.

Also, I think it is pretty facetious to describe 5e as
"completely lacking in any guidance whatsoever"
I mean...really? Somehow millions of people have figured out how to play and have had a great time doing so.
 
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Clint_L

Hero
Look at many of my previous posts. I haven’t been using the term transparency as much as @Hussar, but it’s very much what I’ve been talking about.

I think any RPG text should be open about the design decisions made and the reasons for them. They should explain the reasons for decisions. They should offer examples AND explain what the example is doing and why. The text should talk about changes to the system and what may cause issues when doing so and why.
I don't think WotC is secretive about their design decisions. Are you asking for these to be explained at detail in the PHB, for each rule? The PHB does offer examples, and explain them. There are places where it could do this better, but that is true of any complicated rules system. When I look at Dungeon World, for example, there isn't a detailed explanation of why the particular variable ranges for the outcome of a move (10+, 7-9, 6-) are set where they are. It seems to me that the manual is not the place for the design philosophy to be constantly explained in detail, or it would become unwieldy, and most of that information is not relevant to most people.

I'm not sure what you are asking for, in terms of what that would like in the PHB. Hussar is clearer; they have consistently suggested that they would prefer more detailed lists and so on. I prefer the opposite.
 

hawkeyefan

Legend
The thing is I've found these with 3pp (along with some WotC products). I would think this was the purpose that 3pp were supposed to serve.

Edit: I also feel like transparency is being used in different ways by different posters in this thread.

I think it’s being used pretty consistently. It’s about openness with and about game mechanics.

I would say it already does. That doesn't change my opinion of telling people how the sausage is made. Very few people care, and I don't see how it would make a difference.

But if the game expects GMs and players to make sausage themselves, then I don’t get the resistance to the idea.

I'm not sure what you are asking for, in terms of what that would like in the PHB. Hussar is clearer; they have consistently suggested that they would prefer more detailed lists and so on. I prefer the opposite.

I personally don’t want anything. I’m saying what I think makes sense. A game… any game… should provide the means to deliver the desired play experience. For an RPG, that typically means rules and mechanics. In a case where the game is meant to deliver a variety of play experiences, I think this still holds.

What I’ve been saying is that if the game doesn’t provide the actual mechanics for a given play experience and expects the participants to add the necessary elements themselves, then it should provide guidance on how to do so. What form this guidance takes may vary… but I think the actual books should likely be the starting point.

Whether 5e actually does this is a matter of opinion, and I’m not really interested in trying to change anyone’s opinion on that.
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
So what is transparency to you?
Transparency, to me, is three things:
  1. If something is designed for a function, you tell players what that function is.
  2. If a subsystem is designed to serve a particular end, you explain this at least to the DM, preferably with examples and contrast.
  3. If you have intentionally left something open-ended and it is not overwhelmingly obvious why that is the case, you say something about it.
For the first, if the Barbarian is designed to be a "tanky bruiser" (someone who tends to be quite durable, but can also dish it out about as well as they can take it, to appropriate a term from MOBAs), then you present that information to the player, e.g. "The Barbarian is a juggernaut, able to wade through the slings and arrows of battle and pummel their foes in kind." If the Bard is designed to have a baseline of control and support effects, but easily flex into any focus someone might like, you might describe that as, "Bards are beguilers, soothsayers, and tricksters, giving succor to their allies and putting their foes into disarray, but they are also supremely flexible, each building their own repertoire of signature spells. How they come by such esoteric knowledge is often a carefully-guarded secret."

For the second, wealth-by-level options for various campaign styles, and ways to support different campaign focuses or player interests. E.g. 4e's Inherent Bonus rules are great for a gritty, low-magic game, while PF1e's idea of "capital" is a useful way to handle acquiring goods of various kinds that don't need to be narrowly described but which can be bought, sold, or traded. Explaining how and (equally important) why one would use or not use various rules and techniques.

For the third, I've already given the example of 13A's epic Linguist feat, but to spell it out in full: The Adventurer tier feat makes you proficient (but not fluent) in most basic spoken languages (e.g. D&D's common, undercommon, goblinoid, etc.), but your vocabulary is very adventurer-centric. The Champion-tier feat (which, by default, requires the Adventurer-tier feat be taken first) makes you fluent in essentially all living languages and proficient with most dead languages, if it's not been actively concealed or thoroughly lost to time. It then says in a sidebar, as noted above, "There shouldn't be any need for an epic Linguist feat. If you really want one, you know what you want it for better than we do." In other words, whatever it is you want it to do, go for it, because there's no way we could meet that need any better than you can.

And, to be clear, that last bit is NOT indicating that you're somehow "only allowed" to do things your way if it's been specified. It is, instead, a notice (or perhaps warning) that the designers have left that completely up to you, they aren't even going to try to fill that gap, because everything they do will necessarily fall short. For things that don't get that disclaimer, the implication is not, and should not ever be understood as, "You are beholden to these rules to the last letter, and God help you if you ever stray." It is, instead, "We worked very hard to test these rules so that they work reliably, across a broad range of both common and uncommon player experiences. Try to use them if you can, because it will save you time and effort. But if you find that they aren't working for you, please, do what it takes to address that. We'll try to help by explaining how and why we did things, so you can make informed, purposeful decisions about how to do it your way."

You just want a price list? What rarity would be appropriate by level?
A price list, preferably with additional advice regarding different kinds of campaigns, or campaigns that have a heavy economic or production focus (that is, games where characters try to get into the magic item "biz" as it were.) Rarity by level is a start, but a spread of options (e.g. no/low/mid/high magic) is a significant improvement. A discussion talking about how, due to D&D's overall combat focus, combat items are generally more valuable than non-combat ones, but that context should also be taken into account. Ideally, less a pricing "formula" and more a pricing process for how to develop custom item prices; something like "start with the baseline rarity, then factor in the intended potency of the item (e.g. a +3 Vorpal Flaming Longsword is clearly much stronger than just a +3 longsword), and finally consider the item in the context of the campaign, e.g. a headband of ancient dragon intellect (setting Int to 23) is probably going to be a lot more valuable in an intrigue-heavy campaign with a Wizard PC than it is in a pure-combat game where the only full casters are a Cleric and a Bard. Again, less "formula" and more "clear, specific processes with examples to help people make their own decisions."

Because yeah...the "rarity" guidelines in the 5e DMG? They ain't that. At all. Unless you already have a very firm grasp of exactly how you want magic items to work, they're barely more than loose suggestions.

Guidelines are in the DMG with more given in XGtE. Hopefully they'll go into more detail in the 2024 edition.
The guidelines in the DMG were crap from the very beginning, and the online discourse of the time demonstrated that rather well. I saw numerous discussions asking, more or less, "how on earth do I handle magic items?????" Or, worse, the tedious and near-constant stream of "gold is worthless in 5e" threads.

Giving more advice and guidelines three years later is, I think you would agree, too little, too late. If the edition that must not be named gets held to account for taking only eight months to address various issues present at launch, I'm absolutely going to hold 5e to task for taking four and a half times as long.

But just tossing around a nebulous phrase "More transparency!" Is pretty meaningless because it seems to mean different things to different people.
At least it's more specific than "fun." Which is genuinely meaningless as a target. Transparency, at least you know that it's about being clear with your intentions and communicating things to the DM and/or players. "Fun" is so broad as to refer to truly anything at all. Some people, in some contexts, find 52 Pickup "fun."
 
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EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
I would say it already does. That doesn't change my opinion of telling people how the sausage is made. Very few people care, and I don't see how it would make a difference.

It would be nice if the dev team could have a blog or safe space to talk about this stuff, and the do in interviews now and then. But considering the reactions they get when they do discuss stuff I understand why they're hesitant. At one point in the development of 5E they were considering a much more modular system and then changed their minds, something I consider the correct choice. Yet a decade later people still complain about the lack of modularity we were "promised". Yet we were never promised anything, it was an off the cuff remark in an interview. They can't win.

So no, I don't see how explaining why they did or didn't do something would make much of a difference.
It makes an enormous difference if the game is built around expecting people to, using your "how the sausage is made" metaphor:
  • clean and maintain the sausage-making machine themselves
  • spice and flavor the sausage themselves
  • alter the salt content, fat-to-protein ratio, and preservatives ad hoc to suit their tastes
  • select, or create, their own casings
  • regularly need to swap out integral parts in order to prepare non-meat sausages instead of meat ones
I'd say it's pretty much essential to explain how the sausage is made when you expect the customer to be making their own sausage most of the time. Which is precisely what 5e does: it basically shrugs and says, "eh, DMs can figure it out," leaving significant chunks of game design completely untouched, resulting in DMs having to fill in the blanks, not being able to fill in blanks (which all GMs have always been able to do in all games ever, period.)
 

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