"Oddities" in fantasy settings - the case against "consistency"

Yeah, I think that’s the point of the OP. To be open to ideas that may seem different than you expected. To not reflexively disagree because we’re being too precious about our own ideas.
True.

Oftentimes when someone says "this is a situation that works", people (me included) tend to interpret it as "this situation works all the time". At the same time, someone will point out that "this situation can also not work" and it's quickly interpreted as "this situation cannot work, ever".
 
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Yeah, 3e really tried to be symmetrical and provide complete stats for as many things as possible. It was indeed over-engineered, even though it was good engineering (and a game-changer for the time).

i agree it was well done, and I like 3E still for certain styles of play. But it feels off for me as the default D&D at this point (too much of the system interferes with how I like to run and play the game)
 

i agree it was well done, and I like 3E still for certain styles of play. But it feels off for me as the default D&D at this point (too much of the system interferes with how I like to run and play the game)
Oh, me too. There's no way I'll ever go back to 3e!

I do admire what they managed to do with the system however; it was the first time I felt a system was not only "designed" but "engineered" as well. They were very thorough (way too much for me as it turns out) but I've got to give it to 3e and the OGL, it was a turning point in system-design in RPG history.
 

This isn't so much about establishing a dialogue regarding a mutually agreed premise, and finding creative ways to accommodate the wishes of players - I'm all about that. Several posters have answered in those terms already. And I'm not really concerned about player motivation - several posters have implied that I'm pre-judging that (negatively), and I'm not.
You may not be pre-judging, but you might be missing out on something that could enhance your game by creating interesting plot hooks.

It's more about my question as to whether there is a difference between a GM enforcing genre-appropriate restrictions when the setting is their own, as opposed to some already extant universe. As I've also pointed out in a subsequent post, I'm not persuaded by @pemerton's assertion that the divide between setting and genre can be unequivocally stated: at what point is genre fidelity compromised in order to accommodate a player's vision; or at what point is player autonomy quashed in order to maintain genre fidelity? I don't have an answer to these questions btw, but would suggest that such a point will always exist.
I disagree. You create a world with no magic. Assuming it's an otherwise fantastical world (e.g., not the real world or a harder SF setting), why no magic? Because you didn't think about it? Because you don't want magic being an easy out? Because you don't want mages to outshine martials? Because you wanted to play in this one system that doesn't have rules for magic? I might have missed it, but I don't think I've seen anyone here address the reasons behind that limitation. If you know why you don't want magic in the game, then you can work with the player to find out why they want to play the last mage.

A Pendragon game might accommodate a female knight (a minor deviation from genre expectations regarding gender roles). Or it might accommodate a samurai (incongruous, but certainly doable), or it might accommodate a 10,000-year old Atlantean mage. Or a dragon. But can it accommodate all of these? - there will be a point where the game ceases to accurately represent the genre it is attempting to portray.
Two things here that would need to be addressed: first, do the game's rules even allow for an Atlantean mage or a dragon PC? I took a quick look at a product page for the Pendragon Campaign (I've never played the game or read the books) and it apparently has rules for magic, and assuming that PCs are allowed to use that magic, then having a mage from Atlantis isn't a problem. Here you can talk to the player. Why Atlantis? How did you get from there to here? Since faeries seem to exist in this game, perhaps you, as the GM, can say that Atlantis is actually a fae city, another Avalon or Tir na Nog. If the rules don't allow for faerie PCs, then they can play a human who had been a "guest" of the fae for 10,000 years and only just escaped, and had picked up a few magical tricks.

And now you have potential plot hooks (fae keepers looking for an escaped pet) and a good RP hook (playing a character who has been away from other humans for thousands of years, even if a much shorter time has passed in the real world).

Dragons, of course, are a bit tougher due to perceived power levels, but again, do the rules allow such a thing? If yes, and you merely need a way to tie them into the setting, that's also easy. In folklore, there have always been strange creatures that were "saved" by being converted to Christianity. Meet Brother Grazadragram Ironscale; he donated his hoard to the church.

If there are rules to allow for "weird" PCs, or if the rules say that your non-human heritage doesn't matter, mechanics-wise, then that means that's it's either perfectly fine to play an Atlantean mage or a dragon, or that the designers were dumb enough to think that nobody would ever want to play something really weird in an otherwise Arthurian setting.

And if the rules don't allow such things, then nobody can say you're unreasonable for not allowing homebrew. If the player wants to play an Atlantean mage because Atlanteans have super-powerful tech, you can point to the equipment list and say "sorry, there's no space ships here; you can have a cart and a mule instead."

Secondly, what's the point of the game? If the point is Arthurian quests and chivalry, then why can't a dragon do those too? What's preventing Brother Grazadragram from going on a quest to find the Holy Grail, or whatever it is Pendragon PCs are assumed to be doing? If the plan is to have the PCs just faffing around the British countryside doing whatever they want, then how is letting one of them be a dragon any different?

This is why it's important to find out your player's motivation, because then you can work with them to create a character that actually fits in with the setting and genre.
 

I somehow don't see that happening. If you've got the last mage in the world in your party, magic (in some form or other) is going to be front and centre whether anyone really wants it to be or not.
Only if the PCs actions warrant it (what if they're really clever about not using their magic in obvious ways) or the GM forces the issue.

You seem to be assuming D&D-style fireballs, but that's a big assumption. Look at Mage: the Ascension, where you're required to make your magic as unobtrusive as possible. If you want to shoot a lightning bolt at a target, that's bad; it causes Paradox. If you want to subtly rearrange reality so that a car crashes into a utility pole and causes the power lines to snap and one of them to hit your target, thus electrocuting them, that's fine, because it seems to be a mundane event.

And in D&D, most spellcasters are going to have access to a very large number of spells that do all manner of things. That's not true in other games; in many games, you only get a handful of spells, if that. In SWADE, for instance, you're probably not going to start with more than three or four spells (and often less), and it's unlikely you'll learn more than a dozen over the course of the entire game.

If your last mage only knows a couple of spells that have a relatively small number of uses, the game is not going to revolve around them. The other PCs are going to be far more useful in most situations.

How can it not be?
Because you, the GM, are not required to write adventures about it. Maybe you only play in completely open sandboxes, but you have to realize that's not the case with most games.

And maybe the cause of magic's dying is well-known. Maybe magic died when the last dragon was slain, or when the Orb of Magic was broken in order to seal the rift that led to the chthonic Netherworld, or when the God of Icky Things slew the God of Magic. There's no question of dying/rebirthing magic unless you, the GM, make it so. If the players want to chase dead ends, then it's up to you to decide if you want them to waste everyone's time or if you want to just outright say "hey, guys, there's no way to bring magic back. This is a post-magipocalyse game."

The one time I played a chosen one (or similar) it wasn't by any choice of mine. In fact, I was trying to retire the character at the time because giving up adventuring was what the character would have done in his then-current situation, for various reasons. It took a Charm Person from another PC to get him to go back into the field again, so off he went to his chosen-one destiny.
That player was a jerk then, because your character decisions are not up to other players to force. Especially not with mind-rape magic like charm person.

Is it, though? I'd say the odds are very high that choice is going to be made for him, if not by my character then by someone else in the setting who - depending on that person's (or group's) view of magic - either wants to keep him safe or kill him.
Yes, it is. This is bad behavior. You shouldn't be tolerating this at your table.

Which only works if I'm willing to relegate my character to a forever-support role; and that would depend entirely on whether I'm running a character who would, in-character, be willing to take on that role. Some would. Others wouldn't.
So forcing a player to have their PC stay at home and forcing a player to continue playing a PC they don't want to are both OK, but actively choosing for your own character to act as a bodyguard is not OK? So, you're fine with things that affect others as long as they don't affect you, personally? Wow.

If the last mage was a party NPC I'd do the same thing.
And that would be dumb move on your part. It's no more sensible for you to go adventuring then it is for a last mage to be adventuring.

Tough. It'd be the same as if you'd decided to play a character with a big fat price on its head and I (or I and the rest of the party) decided to turn you in for the reward. Just because someone in the setting has a player attached is no reason to treat it any differently than if it didn't, and IMO players have to realize this.
Which would also be a jerk move, because part of the game is to work as a team, not to betray each other like that. And again, maybe your games are filled with people who don't understand or care about concepts like teamwork or consent, but most games are not like that.

And if I-as-player made a character choice that left me similarly vulnerable to the actions of my fellow party members, I have no cause to complain if-when they just do what their characters would do and turn me in. C'est la vie - out come the roll-up dice and away I go. :)
And most gamers actually care about their characters to not just shrug their shoulders like this.

An NPC could do the same thing, which puts us right back to the last-mage player not having through it through all the way.
At this point,t he only thing they haven't thought through is why they would want to play at a table like yours.
 


If it was presented as "there is no more magic since magic died out in the world" and the group agreed to that premise, a player trying to play a wizard is being disruptive.

A player insisting on playing a wizard and throwing a temper tantrum if they don't get what they want is disruptive.

A player who agreed to the premise, then got an idea they thought might be cool, and asking for it, is not being disruptive - they are asking for a dialog.

There is nothing in this so dangerous that it can't be talked about.
 

This isn't so much about establishing a dialogue regarding a mutually agreed premise, and finding creative ways to accommodate the wishes of players - I'm all about that. Several posters have answered in those terms already. And I'm not really concerned about player motivation - several posters have implied that I'm pre-judging that (negatively), and I'm not.

It's more about my question as to whether there is a difference between a GM enforcing genre-appropriate restrictions when the setting is their own, as opposed to some already extant universe. As I've also pointed out in a subsequent post, I'm not persuaded by @pemerton's assertion that the divide between setting and genre can be unequivocally stated: at what point is genre fidelity compromised in order to accommodate a player's vision; or at what point is player autonomy quashed in order to maintain genre fidelity? I don't have an answer to these questions btw, but would suggest that such a point will always exist.

A Pendragon game might accommodate a female knight (a minor deviation from genre expectations regarding gender roles). Or it might accommodate a samurai (incongruous, but certainly doable), or it might accommodate a 10,000-year old Atlantean mage. Or a dragon. But can it accommodate all of these? - there will be a point where the game ceases to accurately represent the genre it is attempting to portray.
I would just observe that this makes sense, however I draw the line at anyone assuming that GMs are automatically genre police. I mean, nothing you said here points to that, but it seems often people just assume it is so. Like in your Arthurian example I don't think it is wrong for players to 'vote with their feet' by creating characters that fit each of those descriptions. They're just creating a bit more fantastic world than the likes of Mallory may have envisioned. It's not wrong or bad fun.
 

I somehow don't see that happening. If you've got the last mage in the world in your party, magic (in some form or other) is going to be front and centre whether anyone really wants it to be or not.
Why? In my first 4e campaign the cleric literally has the backstory of being a foundling marked as The Chosen One, and raised by monks who trained her so she could fulfill her divine mission!

The character got just as much face time and weight in play as the dwarf searching for her missing family members, the wizard hiding out from her powerful elder family, and the warlock who got his Star Pact by triggering the end of the world by opening a forbidden book, or the rogue who's family are super spies and assassins.

All the above unsolicited backstory items did get touched on in play. The cleric found an artifact and learned about 2 other pieces of a set. The dwarf found his father and they made a mighty weapon which killed a demon. Etc. It was fun and none of these supposed problems ever arose.
 

I might have missed it, but I don't think I've seen anyone here address the reasons behind that limitation.

I think it would boil down to the GM and/or other players having a really compelling reason not to want to alter the premise for some reason.

I don’t know what that reason might be… most of what’s been suggested seems applicable to any game, not just one that involves collaborative world building.
 

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