D&D 5E If "Extra Attack" Was A Feat, What Would Its Prerequisites Be?

[TwoSix]

Look at it this way. If I charop a fighter whose average DPR is higher than fireball, then giving that fighter at-will fireball isn't unbalanced. He deals more damage when he isn't casting fireball than if he is!

That doesn't, however, mean that it would be reasonable to give the fighter class at-will fireball at 1st level, right?

Yep, I agree with all that.

 

[Yaarel]

Only if you abandon the class. I can't be a battlemaster echo knight.

Conceptually, a character should be able to multi-subclass.

Gamewise, theres no reason not to.

Balancewise, one is taking a lower subclass level at a higher character class level. So the low subclass features would need to be worthwhile at a high level too.

It actually can't because not all subclasses advance on the same levels.

Roughly speaking, every class gains a subclass level at each four-level tier, at the level before the feat level.

However, some classes list class features instead for about two of these tiers.

As long as each subclass level is worthwhile, it is easy to design it for any class − especially if with the intention of taking an new subclass or a feat when the subclass runs out.

Exactly the same except where they're nothing like each other unless you completely rewrite subclasses and also ignore all the rules and design.

The designers have already experimented with "prestige" classes in the Strixhaven setting. It was an abortive effort. But it can work well, and deserves more attention.

Especially for the sake of customization.

Some character concepts are bigger than a feat and smaller than class. The subclass is a good place for these kinds of concepts.

 

[CleverNickName]

Look at it this way. If I charop a fighter whose average DPR is higher than fireball, then giving that fighter at-will fireball isn't unbalanced. He deals more damage when he isn't casting fireball than if he is!

That doesn't, however, mean that it would be reasonable to give the fighter class at-will fireball at 1st level, right?

I have no idea how we got from "you can swing twice with your weapon instead of once" to "at-will fireball at 1st level," but ooof. This would be a terrible idea for a feat.

 

[ichabod]

I have no idea how we got from "you can swing twice with your weapon" to "at-will fireball at 1st level

On the internet, you can go anywhere.

 

[Yaarel]

I tried this.

The issue is, of course, spellcasting.

The expected way spellcasting operates in D&D shackles and brainboxes it to the class system because if you don't separate spellcasting from every other non-spellcaster's system, you get an omnigod at pretty much any level. Even SHARPLY reducing the power of spells and creating techniques for martials, I still had to create a mage and cleric to act as containment vessels for D&D magic and make getting one spell a feat anyone else can take.

Spells themselves can organized into feats.

For example, there are feats that grant both a slot 1 spell per day and a slot 2 spell per day.

Two cantrips are worth about background feat.

And so on with higher tier spell feats with level prereqs. Possibly, having a lower tier spell as a prereq.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Conceptually, a character should be able to multi-subclass.

Gamewise, theres no reason not to.

Balancewise, one is taking a lower subclass level at a higher character class level. So the low subclass features would need to be worthwhile at a high level too.

Should but can't.

If they could, they wouldn't be the subclass system we're talking about.

Roughly speaking, every class gains a subclass level at each four-level tier, at the level before the feat level.

However, some classes list class features instead for about two of these tiers.

As long as each subclass level is worthwhile, it is easy to design it for any class − especially if with the intention of taking an new subclass or a feat when the subclass runs out.

'It would be easy to design'.

Except they didn't. Let's not talk about theorheticals, let's talk about what actually exists.

The designers have already experimented with "prestige" classes in the Strixhaven setting. It was an abortive effort. But it can work well, and deserves more attention.

Like more classes, and modular game systems, and more feats, and psionics, and... well the list goes on and on with all the improvements that never actually materialized. I'd even say they've discarded a full better game than what moved on to 5.5.

Especially for the sake of customization.

Man, I'd love some of that.

Some character concepts are bigger than a feat and smaller than class. The subclass is a good place for these kinds of concepts.

So like... not a feat tree.

 

[Stormonu]

The idea was that this hypothetical optimized fighter is dealing more than the total damage of fireball with his attacks (rather than single target fireball damage).

Not as a dare, but I would be curious to see what sort of build could do this - 5th, 8th and 10th level or so.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Spells themselves can organized into feats.

For example, there are feats that grant both a slot 1 spell per day and a slot 2 spell per day.

Two cantrips are worth about background feat.

And so on with higher tier spell feats with level prereqs. Possibly, having a lower tier spell as a prereq.

Tried this too.

And that's where player psychology comes in. These are from my playtests:

Martial players who want to do A Thing are more than willing to pay a feat for a spell. Ignite their sword, raise an earthen pillar, throw up a magic shield? All good.

But.

When the player is actively trying to make a spellcaster, the number of feats doesn't give them enough spells to feel like they're playing a spellcaster.

Thus I ended up having to stick with classes so I could give them 'enough' spells while giving the other classes things to balance the increased spellcasting on the mage and cleric ends.

 

[Charlaquin]

Multiclassing is just 'blatant caster favoritism' with extra steps, IMO. And currently, it seems to be the only alternative.

But at least those extra steps involve being a martial class.

I don’t love 3e style multiclassing either. But I don’t think making martial characters’ toys even easier for casters to steal is the solution.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Thinking about it, rather than Extra Attack, it would probably be easier to allow people to use feats to poach the other martial damage progression.
A feat granting +1d6 Sneak attack that can be taken multiple times would be closer in line with other feats, would be a more even progression, and would be usable by all characters.