D&D General Stripping the Wizard to Bare Bones (+)

[Richards]

Careful - stripping a wizard to the bare bones leaves you with...a lich!

Johnathan

 

[Vaalingrade]

While I'd prefer a more literal interpretation, this is a pretty cool idea.

Some notes:

Blindness/Deafness flavors better to Diviners.

Teleportation and Dimensional space should probably be a subclass thing.

Everything we put on the base list should be subject to an invocation like set of upgrades, some of which are based on subclass.

Imagine of your subclass changed what familiars you got and fireball could be different elements.

 

[Shardstone]

Fantastic idea; Im going to do a twin project because this sounds fun.

 

[DrJawaPhD]

If you strip Wizards of their ability to learn just about every spell in the game, why would anyone ever play a Wizard over Sorcerer? That's the only thing Wizards have

 

[TwoSix]

If you strip Wizards of their ability to learn just about every spell in the game, why would anyone ever play a Wizard over Sorcerer? That's the only thing Wizards have

I generally assume when people propose a radical change to something like a class, they're probably considering other changes as well.

We don't need to know the full extent of the OP's ideas to comment on the proposed idea; they're asking for a discussion on thematics, not balance.

 

[Yaarel]

I'm contemplating gutting the wizard of their spells. At least, sharply restricting what spells are available to ALL wizards. I want to move most of the spells off to the various schools for the subclasses and leave a very small core of spells that all know - the most iconic of spells that make up a "wizard". Something in the neighborhood of 3-5 spells per level. It's a huge task, and I'd like to get opinions on what should stay as essential to a wizard's identity. This is my initial thoughts:

CANTRIPS

• Blade Ward (every wizard benefits from preventing taking damage)
• Firebolt (the most basic magic attack spell)
• Light (an essential "human" spell to see by)
• Mage Hand (basic "move [dangerous] things at a distance)
• Prestidigitation (universal near magic)
• Message (basic magical communication)

1ST LEVEL

• Detect Magic (essential magical detection)
• Magic Missile (I think there'd be a riot if this wasn't core to the wizard)
• Mage Armor (pretty basic magical protection)
• Shield (again, magical protection - might be better reserved for the Abjurer)
• Find Familiar (basic magical companion)
• Identify (basic magic item identification)

2ND LEVEL

• Blindness/Deafness (simple defense)
• Invisibility (core magical protection)
• Levitate (basic magical movement)
• Rope Trick (basic extradimensional space)

3RD LEVEL

• Counterspell (basic magic defense)
• Dispel Magic (basic magic denial)
• Fireball (core blast spell)
• Fly (advanced magical movement)
• Magic Circle (essential magical summons protection)

4TH LEVEL

• Arcane Eye (basic magical scrying)
• Dimension Door (moderate magical movement)
• Private Sanctum (basic magical space)

5TH LEVEL

• Animate Objects (advanced magical companion [of telekinetically )
• Contact Other Plane (advanced knowledge acquisition)
• Legend Lore (advanced knowledge acquisition)
• Scrying (advanced scrying)
• Teleportation Circle (advanced magical movement)

No base spells of 6th+level

I am considering any long casting time spell (1 minute or more) being dropped into the "Core".

I'm open to discussion about what spells should be left in the core, but not whether it should be done (hence the "+"). Let the debate begin!

The spells that you prefer for this list are almost the same thing as "telekinesis".


Force: Blade Ward, Magic Missile, Shield, Levitate, Fly, Animate Objects − but also include the following two by making them explicitly telekinetic: Mage Hand, Mage Armor

All of these "Force" spells and Force related spells, can fold into the 5e school of "Dunomancy".

The other spells also relate to force.

Force as "Magical Energy": Detect Magic, Identify, Counterspell, Dispel Magic

Distortions of Space-Time that Relate to Force: Rope Trick, Dimension Door, Teleportation Circle, Contact Other Plane, Scrying, Arcane Eye, Legend Lore, Private Sanctum (a complex spell that also involves other applications of Force). These space-time spells relate to teleportation and divination.

Elemental Evocations − can be understood as telekinetic manipulations of Elemental Energy, in the sense of "pyrokinesis": Firebolt, Fireball, Light, Invisibility (manipulating light), plus Message (per description nontelepathic, and like a telekinetic manipulation of soundwaves)

Illusion: The objects that are made out of Force (magic-energy), like Prestidigitation, are more like the quasi-real Illusion spells that sometimes have have a solid quality. This immaterial solidity is like a forcefield, molded into the shape of an object. I would relocate these force object spells to the Illusion school. Then I would rewrite Mage Hand and Mage Armor to be clearly telekinetic propulsion rather than quasi-real objects.

Planar Conjurations − seem like outliers but might still be relevant: Find Familiar, Magic Circle, Contact Other Plane. All of this planar magic forms a specialized "Conjuration" school, that focuses on summoning spells that call creatures from other planes of existence. Demiplanes are distortions of the fabric of space, as opposed to planar spells that are levels of being such as the Astral realm of thought.


Two irrelevant outliers should be deleted from this Wizard list:
• Blindness/Deafness (per description is body magic, a kind of opposite of healing)
• Geas (a form of mind magic akin to Charm)


The spells in the list are "old school" D&D spells. Some of these are terrible in the context of 5e, such as Legend Lore being obsolete because of a normal History skill check. These subpar spells would need updates that significantly improve the spell description to be worth bothering with. But thematically they can apply.



In sum, finetune the thematics of the Wizard spell list as "Dunomancy" as follows:

Spoiler: WIZARD LIST

DUNOMANCY

CANTRIPS

• Blade Ward (every wizard benefits from preventing taking damage)
• Mage Hand (basic "move [dangerous] things at a distance" [telekinetically])

1ST LEVEL

• Detect Magic (essential magical detection)
• Magic Missile (I think there'd be a riot if this wasn't core to the wizard)
• Mage Armor (pretty basic magical protection [via a repelling telekinetic aura])
• Shield (again, magical protection [via telekinesis])
• Identify (basic magic item identification)
• Unseen Servant [localized telekinetic activity]

2ND LEVEL

• Levitate (basic magical movement)

3RD LEVEL

• Counterspell (basic magic defense)
• Dispel Magic (basic magic denial)
• Fly (advanced magical movement)

5TH LEVEL

• Animate Objects (advanced magical companion [animated telekinetically])
• Wall of Force

DIVINATION

2ND LEVEL

• Rope Trick (basic extradimensional space)

4TH LEVEL

• Arcane Eye (basic magical scrying)
• Dimension Door (moderate magical movement)
• Private Sanctum [a complex spell with many moving parts]

5TH LEVEL

• Legend Lore (advanced knowledge acquisition)
• Scrying (advanced scrying)
• Teleportation Circle (advanced magical movement)

EVOCATION

CANTRIP

• Firebolt (the most basic magic attack spell)
• Light (an essential "human" spell to see by)
• Message (basic magical communication [by manipulating Thunder soundwaves])

2ND LEVEL

• Invisibility (core magical protection)

3RD LEVEL

• Fireball (core blast spell)

ILLUSION

CANTRIP

• Prestidigitation [= quasi-real object]
• Minor Illusion

3RD LEVEL

• Tiny Hut

Maybe give all of the "Planar" Conjuration spells to the Warlock and Cleric.

Spoiler: CONJURATION

CONJURATION

1ST LEVEL

• Find Familiar (basic magical companion)
• Protection from Evil/Good [= Protection from Planar Creatures]

3RD LEVEL

• Magic Circle (essential [planar magic], magical summons protection)

5TH LEVEL

• Contact Other Plane

 

[Horwath]

if you want to do this then maybe it's best to ban wizard and keep only the sorcerer.

sorcerers spells known is limiting and you can add subclass that adds a cantrip or two plus 2 spells known for levels 1-5 that fit the theme of the caster:

Healer;
cantrips; resistance, spare the dying
level 1; cure wounds, healing word
level 2; lesser restoration, healing spirit
level 3; mass healing word, revivify
level 4; Aura of light, death ward
level 5; mass cure wound, raise dead

Necromancer;
cantrips; chill touch, toll the dead
level 1; false life, inflict wounds
level 2; blindness/deafness, ray of enfeeblement
level 3; animate dead, summon undead
level 4; blight, shadow of moil
level 5; dance macabre, enervation

Kineticist;
cantrips; eldritch blast, mage hand
level 1; magic missile, shield
level 2; levitate, kinetic jaunt
level 3; fly, haste
level 4; Mordekainen's faithful hound, Otiluke's resilient sphere
level 5; animate objects, telekinesis

Traveler;
cantrips; guidance, mage hand
level 1; expeditious retreat, longstrider
level 2; misty step, vortex warp
level 3; thunder step, gaseous form
level 4; dimension door, find greater steed
level 5; passwall, teleportation circle

Greenseer;
cantrips; primal savagery, thorn whip
level 1; entangle, fog cloud
level 2; spike growth, pass without trace
level 3; plant growth, summon fey
level 4; guardian of nature, summon elemental
level 5; insect plague, wrath of nature

Pyromancer;
cantrips; firebolt, greenflame blade
level 1; burning hands, hellish rebuke
level 2; scorching ray, heat metal
level 3; fireball, ashardalon's stride
level 4; fireshield(fire), summon elemental(fire)
level 5; immolation, summon draconic spirit(fire)

Mindbender:
cantrips; friends, mind sliver
level 1; charm person, dissonant whispers
level 2; hold person, suggestion
level 3; enemies abound, fear
level 4; charm monster, phantasmal killer
level 5; dominate person, modify memory

Illusionist;
cantrips; message, minor image
level 1; disguise self, minor image
level 2; invisibility, mirror image
level 3; hypnotic patter, major image
level 4; greater invisibility, hallucinatory terrain
level 5; dream, seeming

Defender;
cantrips; bladeward, sword burst
level 1; absorb elements, armor of agathys
level 2; aid, blur
level 3; counterspell, dispel magic
level 4; banishment, freedom of movement
level 5; bigby's hand, dispel good and evil

 

[DrJawaPhD]

I generally assume when people propose a radical change to something like a class, they're probably considering other changes as well.

We don't need to know the full extent of the OP's ideas to comment on the proposed idea; they're asking for a discussion on thematics, not balance.

Fair enough I guess. It just seems like the proposed idea to take the Sorcerer class and call it Wizard, I can't really think of anything productive to add so I'll see myself out

 

[Yaarel]

Where the schools are:

• Dunomancy = Force
• Illusion = quasi-real objects
• Divination = Spacetime = Teleportation and Divination
• Evocation = Elemental Energy = Fire (Fire, Radiant), Air (Lightning, Thunder), Water (Cold), plus Chaos (Acid)
• Transmutation = Elemental Earth = Earth (rock, metal, crystal), Animal, Healing, Plant, and fabricating objects
• Conjuration = Multiverse, Planes of Existence
• Enchantment = Mind Magic, Phantasm


The class thematics are something like specializations in:

Wizard = Dunomancy + Evocation + Divination
Warlock = Conjuration + Enchantment + Illusion
Sorcerer = Evocation + Enchantment + Illusion
Druid = Transmutation + Evocation + Divination
Cleric = Conjuration + Transmutation + Divination
Psion = Enchantment + Divination + Dunomancy
Bard = Divination + Enchantment + Transmutation

 

[Li Shenron]

CANTRIPS

• Light (an essential "human" spell to see by)
• Mage Hand (basic "move [dangerous] things at a distance)
• Prestidigitation (universal near magic)
• Message (basic magical communication)

1ST LEVEL

• Detect Magic (essential magical detection)
• Find Familiar (basic magical companion)
• Identify (basic magic item identification)

2ND LEVEL

• Invisibility (core magical protection)
• Levitate (basic magical movement)
• Rope Trick (basic extradimensional space)

3RD LEVEL

• Counterspell (basic magic defense)
• Dispel Magic (basic magic denial)
• Fly (advanced magical movement)

4TH LEVEL

• Arcane Eye (basic magical scrying)
• Dimension Door (moderate magical movement)
• Private Sanctum (basic magical space)

5TH LEVEL

• Animate Objects (advanced magical companion)
• Scrying (advanced scrying)
• Teleportation Circle (advanced magical movement)

I like the idea if you mean "iconic" in general fantasy literature, not so much if you mean "iconic" in D&D history alone, because in that case you end up with pretty much the same Wizards that most players come up with anyway, making the exercise a bit useless. Then I would strip the list to an ever smaller core spells. I would not choose which spells to be on the list on based on what the wizard "needs", so I would eliminate attack and protection spells. Use non-spells ways to attack and defend yourself, or specialize in the proper schools. I would leave mostly only spells that aren't strongly associated with a school, so I think I could probably remove a few more from your original list, then the list would need some additions in order not to be too short.