D&D 5E How would YOU nerf the wizard? +

[ReshiIRE]

I am not sure if this has been mentioned in this thread. The main change I would make is a system wide change, not just for Wizard; it would change skill and roll resolution in general.

I would add a four degrees of success system, ala Pathfinder 2e.

I don't know what the best numbers would be for D&D 5e, but essentially, make it so that any roll for anything can Critically Succeed, Succeed, Fail or Critically Fail. You get a Success or Failure as you can right now - passing or failing the DC. You can get a Critical Success by passing the DC by getting a result equal to or less than the DC plus 5 or 10; whatever static number would best work with the maths for D&D 5e. A Critical Failure is the opposite - failing the DC by getting a result equal to or below the DC minus 5 or 10.

How would this effect spells? For any attack roll spell that typically means that they would generally have a new effect on a Critical Success - doubling the damage. For any basic attack spell where the target has to roll a Saving Throw, you would add a Critical Success - double damage - and a Critical Fail - no damage.

Of course, where this really will have an impact for spells that cause a powerful status effect. If you have a spell like Power Word Stun and a character has to roll against it, for example, the current effect to stun the target would now be it's Critical Failure; a normal Failure would Restrain the target; etc.* Essentially, some of the most powerful 'save or suck' spells would now do something on Success, but their Failure effects would not be as strong. That way, more powerful creatures would not be crippled or completely trivalised by failing one Saving Throw against the Wizard - though if they do, that would be a big, cool moment.

While overrall 5e would require more changes - in general, bringing up the martial classes by making skills way stronger would be the first thing I would do - I think this type of change would be the best, even if it does require a good amount of work when it comes to redesign.

* You may have to add more conditions to help make this work better.

EDIT: I hope this doesn't violate the plus rules around this thread...

In general I think the Wizard, while a focal point for marital versus caster, is not the direct cause of all of these problems and that it is mainly the power within spell versus the power within martials, particularly outside of combat, that is the issue. If you dumpstered Wizard, you wouldn't solve the problem - without taking into account subclasses, I think Cleric is slept on as the uber powerful caster in the system. Raising martials up and doing more system wide things, even more difficult, is likely to solve the problem while keeping the core of the system 5e.

 

[Lanefan]

My concern with this is it would turn back the clock and make the game a lot less fun. The whole fighter is a blocker for the Wizard is a trope few want to play today. Most casters want to cast in melee.

You can't always get what you want. Sure, casters want to cast in melee, but should they be able to? Hells, no.

And the designers caving to what (they think) players want is what got us into this mess.

Fighters who aren't primarily ranged want to move around the battlefield and those fighters who are primarily ranged tend to want to avoid melee more than the casters do.

Many players don't want the specific constraining "roles" for specific classes. While there are times players might want to be blockers or doorway dodge I think they want that to be a tactical decision on the fly or a specific build for that, not a general strategy as something the game mechanics drive you to based on class.

Then maybe D&D isn't the right system for those "many players".

 

[Gammadoodler]

Most of what I'd do would be to change some of the stuff that's at odds with a lot of genre fiction.

1. Spell failure. Wizard casting is a learned skill. Spells shouldn't be automatic. There should be a risk of failure and consequence for it. (Note: with that in mind, I'd be open to easing restrictions on which spells can be cast from which slots, with the provision that using a higher or lower level slot can increase or reduce the risk of spell failure)

2. Make casting in melee more risky, whether that's through triggered attacks or DC adjustment for execution, I don't know. Maybe a temporary AC penalty or something.

3. Make conditions have a greater impact on casting ability. Some stuff could shut it down, some could just make it more difficult

4. Introduce environmental conditions other than anti-magic that can interfere/interact with casting. Loud places, places with disorienting or ghostly echos, places of conflicting elemental energies, holy/unholy places, basically any evidence at all that the environment you cast in matters (Note: this need not always be a nerf)

In general, I would like Wizard adventurers to feel like people doing a difficult, potentially dangerous thing, using their wits to overcome (or take advantage of ) hazardous conditions.

 

[Horwath]

Most of what I'd do would be to change some of the stuff that's at odds with a lot of genre fiction.

1. Spell failure. Wizard casting is a learned skill. Spells shouldn't be automatic. There should be a risk of failure and consequence for it. (Note: with that in mind, I'd be open to easing restrictions on which spells can be cast from which slots, with the provision that using a higher or lower level slot can increase or reduce the risk of spell failure)

There is a risk of failure.
It't attack roll or saving throw.

2. Make casting in melee more risky, whether that's through triggered attacks or DC adjustment for execution, I don't know. Maybe a temporary AC penalty or something.

provoking AoO for all range and/or Action cast spells would work nicely

I like the house rule that I use for ranged attacks; after you make attack with a ranged weapon, melee attacks have advantage vs you until the start of your next turn.

3. Make conditions have a greater impact on casting ability. Some stuff could shut it down, some could just make it more difficult

there is:
gag or cuff the wizard,
silence spell,

4. Introduce environmental conditions other than anti-magic that can interfere/interact with casting. Loud places, places with disorienting or ghostly echos, places of conflicting elemental energies, holy/unholy places, basically any evidence at all that the environment you cast in matters (Note: this need not always be a nerf)

In general, I would like Wizard adventurers to feel like people doing a difficult, potentially dangerous thing, using their wits to overcome (or take advantage of ) hazardous conditions.

this is idea that can be worked upon.

 

[Aldarc]

Then maybe D&D isn't the right system for those "many players".

Or considering the many players who make up D&D 5e who feel differently, maybe D&D isn't the right system for you.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

I think the wizard should lean more on its theme of "magic as science" and eat the artificer trope.

Remove all spell slots from them and give them the ability to infuse 2 wands of cantrip X Y Z with 3 charges, recover 1d4 at dawn, at 1st level, and make them craft 2 x 1 scrolls of 3rd level spells per day at lvl 5 for example. Id base the actual number and level of craftable scrolls on the same math as Arcane Recovery.

Then add their improved ritual casting and the item infusion from the Artificer and you have a great magic user that feels like a researcher. Less instant spells, more passive magic effects, with the added benefit of being shareable.

 

[Voadam]

One more limit them through buffing them.

Give them healing spells on their list so that there is a bit of pressure on them to spend some of their prepared spells and slots on healing the group.

I did this in 3e with giving all casters healing and I felt it worked well for my purposes.

Bards already have healing, giving it to other arcane casters is not a big jump.

 

[Gammadoodler]

There is a risk of failure.
It't attack roll or saving throw.

provoking AoO for all range and/or Action cast spells would work nicely

I like the house rule that I use for ranged attacks; after you make attack with a ranged weapon, melee attacks have advantage vs you until the start of your next turn.

there is:
gag or cuff the wizard,
silence spell,


this is idea that can be worked upon.

Re: risk of failure.
1. Neither saves nor attack rolls apply to buff spells, heal spells, or quite a few environment manipulation type spells. Those can be executed perfectly..every time..everywhere.
2. Perhaps there is a difference in narration, but I think there's a bit more. Typically attack roll that do not succeed result in a "miss". Saving throw spells are "resisted" (and typically deal 1/2 damage to the target regardless. In neither case do you see the caster fail to produce the desired spell effect, or risk any danger whatsoever in manipulating the fundamental elements of existence.

Re: Conditions and the wizard..
Cuffing the Wizard does not, AFAIK, prevent spellcasting in any way. Gagging them prevents 1 component, but not the 2 others, and is not a condition that is readily available through any ability in the PHB (maybe the monsters have it IDK?). Same with silence spell, but it is only applicable to caster-type creatures. So to fully prevent casting, they'd need to be gagged (or under the effects of a fairly uncommon spell), and bound in a way the rules do not describe.

Compare this with the Frightened condition on martials (especially melee) where it, at a minimum, meaningfully debuffs attacks, but has the potential to wholesale prevent them from participating in the fight. Poisoned applies a debuff wizards can ignore by casting save or buff spells; Grappled and Restrained have zero impact upon casting; Prone doesn't either..etc. Some/most/all of these should impact caster effectiveness somehow. We can do better.

 

[Baron Opal II]

What would you do?

• Wizards receive 1 free spell per level, not two. (I have found this solves much of the problem, almost regardless of edition. The strength of wizards is their versatility. This manages their versatility without eliminating it.)
• Only select atmospheric cantrips are at will (eg prestidigitation, thaumaturgy). Otherwise spellcasting classes can cast their proficiency in cantrips per day. Damaging cantrips do 1d4 damage, capped at 1d6 at 5th level.
• Spells can not be cast wearing armor without specific training (feats). Druids are trained in light armor, clerics in medium. Multiclassing is not "training".
• Wizards have membership in guilds with thematically curated lists. Most guild have fly, for example, but whether the magician is carried by winds, grows faerie wings, or is carried by byhakee is dependent on the guild. This also means that the means of preventing or cancelling the magic is different. If the byhakee is killed by the fighter the wizard falls, for example.
• Curated lists are limited to 12 spells per spell level, 8 for clerical classes. Spells may be learned outside of these lists, but it requires twice the cost to research.
• Cantrips and first level spells may be cast in melee without issue. Higher level spells attract an AoO.
• Spells that create a barrier of force can be taken down with physical damage. Tiny hut has 12 hp. Wall of force has 120 hp and requires magic weapons to be harmed. Even so, wall of force ignores environmental damage. Using it to protect against a flash flood in a gully is valid.
• There is no force cage. Force barriers must be contiguous.*
• Multiclass sorcerer / wizard is not allowed. You are flexible with the spells you know, or the spells you can know. Not both.
• Iron impairs magic. Shackling a wizard make spells very difficult to cast, especially without the feedback potentially cooking the caster.

* This actually caused the elimination of a "stepping stones in the air" 2nd level spell in my campaign. Some chaos cult will bring it back, I'm sure.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Come to think of it, why isn't a sickened wizard worse at casting spell?