D&D General What is the right amount of Classes for Dungeons and Dragons?

[TiQuinn]

Except, it does. Both of them have same purpose and do same thing. They are tools that tell time. To end user, it's all the same.

Ha, ask a watch enthusiast if their enthusiasm is based on whether they are simply tools that tell time and digital or analog, it’s all the same, and see what response you get.

 

[Corinnguard]

Let me just. Dredge this up


No, psions aren't spellcasters. They're psions. Psychic stuff is closer to sci-fi as a 'this is what humanity becomes' type of deal. The original term may be different, but nowerdays its going to refer to a different thing, the whole reading minds, controling other people with your thoughts type of deal. Or, y'know, Mewtwo from Pokemon.

D&D's wizard is very specifically 'You have a spellbook and you cast these spells' type of deal. That isn't how psionics are displayed so I don't know why you've said they have the same lore because like... They demonstrateably dont? Amuro and Char from Gundam (Pick your favourite Gundam protag here, they're all basically Newtypes, except Domon who's the resident martial arts expert) doesn't lug out spellbooks, they're just naturally psychic (well, newtype), naturally got that whole link thing going on with other people, and can just push their respective mechs well beyond what they were desigend to do because of that. Mewtwo from Pokemon doesn't cast spells, he thinks and all of a sudden the joint is exploding all around him and he's doing shadow ball. Hell, Mewtwo we have the exact "He isn't a wizard" comparison because if you're gonna tell me that Mewtwo plays like the most Gish (there are no pure wizards), Robin, we're going to have to have Significant Questions. Here's a fight of two Ex ones of them going, are you actively saying these are both wizards? Tassadar from Starcraft (or heck, the entire Protoss force) don't cast Thought Talk or whatever, they can just project voices into other people and have a psychic link between them all, and merge together, sacrificing their flesh and blood to become huge, terrifying storms of energy that decimate my precious zergling hordes

The wizard, and hell the Magic User entirely, fails miserably at invoking what people want the psion to be. It has everything to do with the lore. It has everything to do with player's expectations at what a psychic character should be capable of. D&D's psionic tropes exist because of the larger use of psychic powers in fiction. Heck, the whole pyrokinetic stuff is just Carrie

We've seen what happens if you remove psion anyway in this edition. People just, invent a new one. Over and over. Multiple times. Because all of the attempts thus far have failed to scratch that itch, and wizard certainly ain't doing it. Didn't do it in 1E, and certainly hasn't done it now.

Maybe @Celebrim is thinking more along the lines of Pathfinder 1st edition's Psychic Magic?

Psychic Magic is Pathfinder's take on Psionics. It uses the same mechanics as regular magic (Vancian), but it has two spell components that are unique to it- Thought and Emotion.

 

[Mecheon]

Lack of respect. Couldn't care less honestly. Call it psionic, magic, call it any way you want. They both do same thing. And usually use same game mechanics to do it. Psion- i use my mind powers to bend reality and light tings on fire. Caster- i use my innate power to manipulate energy and bend reality to light things on fire. Both can do it X/day, range X feet, save DCX, damage X dX.

Magic, as presented by the wizard, is done by incartations and remembered spells, with, y'know, the famous spellbook of wizards as a thing. If we're breaking down things to 'using the same game mechanics', doesn't that mean just everything is the same? Why have, different weapons, they're just a dice you roll to do damage. Couldn't be because, y'know, people have character concepts and want to play as the axe-wielding barbarian versus the katana-wielding samurai

There's a well established difference between divine magic (from gods) and arcane magic (from wizards) in the game, what's so hard to think there's another one that, also does damage? Unless you're saying we should remove Clerics because they have some attack spells that do the same as wizard spells, in which case I think everyone's gonna disagree on that one.

Like, do I gotta bring up Mewtwo versus Robin again. You're saying these are the same thing? Psychic types ain't even magic, that's more Fairy's thing

Except, it does. Both of them have same purpose and do same thing. They are tools that tell time. To end user, it's all the same.

Right, like how a barbarian and a knight are totally just, the same thing because they hit people with a weapon. No thematic differences between them, clearly everything that applies to one to the other /s

 

[Mind of tempest]

Let me just. Dredge this up


No, psions aren't spellcasters. They're psions. Psychic stuff is closer to sci-fi as a 'this is what humanity becomes' type of deal. The original term may be different, but nowerdays its going to refer to a different thing, the whole reading minds, controling other people with your thoughts type of deal. Or, y'know, Mewtwo from Pokemon.

D&D's wizard is very specifically 'You have a spellbook and you cast these spells' type of deal. That isn't how psionics are displayed so I don't know why you've said they have the same lore because like... They demonstrateably dont? Amuro and Char from Gundam (Pick your favourite Gundam protag here, they're all basically Newtypes, except Domon who's the resident martial arts expert) doesn't lug out spellbooks, they're just naturally psychic (well, newtype), naturally got that whole link thing going on with other people, and can just push their respective mechs well beyond what they were desigend to do because of that. Mewtwo from Pokemon doesn't cast spells, he thinks and all of a sudden the joint is exploding all around him and he's doing shadow ball. Hell, Mewtwo we have the exact "He isn't a wizard" comparison because if you're gonna tell me that Mewtwo plays like the most Gish (there are no pure wizards), Robin, we're going to have to have Significant Questions. Here's a fight of two Ex ones of them going, are you actively saying these are both wizards? Tassadar from Starcraft (or heck, the entire Protoss force) don't cast Thought Talk or whatever, they can just project voices into other people and have a psychic link between them all, and merge together, sacrificing their flesh and blood to become huge, terrifying storms of energy that decimate my precious zergling hordes

The wizard, and hell the Magic User entirely, fails miserably at invoking what people want the psion to be. It has everything to do with the lore. It has everything to do with player's expectations at what a psychic character should be capable of. D&D's psionic tropes exist because of the larger use of psychic powers in fiction. Heck, the whole pyrokinetic stuff is just Carrie

We've seen what happens if you remove psion anyway in this edition. People just, invent a new one. Over and over. Multiple times. Because all of the attempts thus far have failed to scratch that itch, and wizard certainly ain't doing it. Didn't do it in 1E, and certainly hasn't done it now.

psionics has several possible thematic options and regardless if it casts fireball it is the same as all others for bookkeeping reasons.

Since we were talking about roles in the 4e Rob Heinsoo thread, I would just add briefly here that this was something that I liked about roles and power sources in 4e. 4e Dark Sun had the guts to do something that the original Dark Sun did not: it removed clerics from the game entirely! It did so by excluding the Divine power source classes (e.g., Paladin, Cleric, Avenger, Invoker). But the game could still function without worrying about heals because it had Martial, Primal, and Psionic leaders for healing and support: i.e., the Warlord, the Shaman, and the Ardent, respectively.

I want another setting to do that just so it feels different, not inherently no gods just a very different idea.

That was never my experience. People didn’t play psionics because the rules stopped including them, or because the system or the effects for psionics were no different than magic.

or dms hated it.

 

[GrimCo]

Ha, ask a watch enthusiast if their enthusiasm is based on whether they are simply tools that tell time and digital or analog, it’s all the same, and see what response you get.

As a watch aficionado and a bit of a watch collector, there are all kinds of watch enthusiasts. But from pure practical standpoint, there is no difference. They serve same purpose, do same thing.

Don't get me wrong. I always allowed psionics in my games. I played psionic characters. Dark Sun is still my all time #2 setting for D&D. But if we take Dark Sun as an example, to me and some people i know, it looks like psionics were there so people can play casters without getting entangled into whole Defiler/Preserver lore shenanigans.

Psionics feel like easy way to add magic without explicitly adding magic. It uses pseudoscientific fluff to justify people with powers to bend and break reality. To mundane person, both look the same.

And yes, clerics are superfluous. Only mechanical differentiation is spell lists. And with 5e feats and some class traits, you can play divine caster with arcane spells and arcane casters with divine spells.

Character concepts can be depicted using same mechanical chassis. I can play axe wielding barbarian using fighter class. Or Samurai using barbarian. But then again, i differentiate character thematic and mechanical concepts. But i get that some people like theme and mechanics to together. De gustibus and all that.

 

[Mecheon]

Maybe @Celebrim is thinking more along the lines of Pathfinder 1st edition's Psychic Magic?

Psychic Magic is Pathfinder's take on Psionics. It uses the same mechanics as regular magic (Vancian), but it has two spell components that are unique to it- Thought and Emotion.

I'm being edition neutral in this.

My point is that the story and base concept. I don't care how that's represented mechanically, except for the fact it should be distinct from the casting of wizard spells because, you're not a wizard. You don't use a spellbook, you don't chant ancient incantations, you study an entirely different type of mystery. If we're breaking everything down to 'oh its just magic' then, well, we are talking about Dungeons and Dragons with its famous polearm chart back in 1E

Psionics have been in the game for decades at this point and always established as a different sort of magic, just like divine and arcane are different

 

[Corinnguard]

And with 5e feats and some class traits, you can play divine caster with arcane spells and arcane casters with divine spells.

Dragon Magazine had a 3e variant of the cleric class known as the Arcane Disciple. These were clerics who worshipped magic and could cast arcane spells. The Scarred Lands setting for 3e had the Cabalist, wizards who could 'steal' some of the divine magic being channeled into a cleric by their deity in order to cast divine spells.

 

[Mind of tempest]

As a watch aficionado and a bit of a watch collector, there are all kinds of watch enthusiasts. But from pure practical standpoint, there is no difference. They serve same purpose, do same thing.

Don't get me wrong. I always allowed psionics in my games. I played psionic characters. Dark Sun is still my all time #2 setting for D&D. But if we take Dark Sun as an example, to me and some people i know, it looks like psionics were there so people can play casters without getting entangled into whole Defiler/Preserver lore shenanigans.

Psionics feel like easy way to add magic without explicitly adding magic. It uses pseudoscientific fluff to justify people with powers to bend and break reality. To mundane person, both look the same.

And yes, clerics are superfluous. Only mechanical differentiation is spell lists. And with 5e feats and some class traits, you can play divine caster with arcane spells and arcane casters with divine spells.

Character concepts can be depicted using same mechanical chassis. I can play axe wielding barbarian using fighter class. Or Samurai using barbarian. But then again, i differentiate character thematic and mechanical concepts. But i get that some people like theme and mechanics to together. De gustibus and all that.

from a pure practical stand point dnd does not need to exist, extra options are unlikely to make dnd worse.

magic has lots of meaning should we merge clerics with wizards as both do magic?

I'm being edition neutral in this.

My point is that the story and base concept. I don't care how that's represented mechanically, except for the fact it should be distinct from the casting of wizard spells because, you're not a wizard. You don't use a spellbook, you don't chant ancient incantations, you study an entirely different type of mystery. If we're breaking everything down to 'oh its just magic' then, well, we are talking about Dungeons and Dragons with its famous polearm chart back in 1E

Psionics have been in the game for decades at this point and always established as a different sort of magic, just like divine and arcane are different

I still say the psion should be taking the party role of the cleric so you can cut god out of your adventures

 

[Neonchameleon]

Let me just. Dredge this up


No, psions aren't spellcasters. They're psions.

And psions, whether in 2e, 3.0, or 3.5 are clearly and unequivocally spellcasters. I don't mind the idea that psionicists should be different from spellcasters. But this is a spell and they didn't even bother to file many of the serial numbers off, just calling it something else and making it use a power point rather than a slot system with numbers that directly translate.

Levitate, Psionic​

Psychoportation​

Level: Nomad 2, psion/wilder 2, psychic warrior 2​

Display: Olfactory​

Manifesting Time: 1 standard action​

Range: Personal or close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)​

Target: You or one willing creature or one object (total weight up to 100 lb./level)​

Duration: 10 min./level (D)​

Saving Throw: None​

Power Resistance: Yes (harmless, object)​

Power Points: 3​

​

As the levitate spell, except as noted here.​

Special​

​

When a psion, wilder, or a psychic warrior manifests this power, the target is the manifester (not a willing creature or an object).​

Psychic stuff is closer to sci-fi as a 'this is what humanity becomes' type of deal.

Which is why Psions have always always been a disappointment. The only thing that made Psions more loved than the Aberrant Mind was 70 pages of custom crafted spells in 2e and 3.5.

The original term may be different, but nowerdays its going to refer to a different thing, the whole reading minds, controling other people with your thoughts type of deal.

You mean Detect Magic, and Dominate Person. What you're describing could just as easily be a bard.

Is it possible to have psionic powers that are not spells? Yes. The Soulknife manages it - and GURPS does it well, differentiating between psionics and magic. But the Psion? That's a spellcaster with access to different spells.

Both Storm Herald Barbarians and Storm Soul Sorcerers channel the storm. But only one of them is a spellcaster. The Psion is an implementation of a psychic as a spellcaster. And for all psionics aren't magic neither is the storm. This doesn't prevent Storm Soul Sorcerers from casting.

D&D's wizard is very specifically 'You have a spellbook and you cast these spells' type of deal. That isn't how psionics are displayed

The Psion meanwhile is very specifically "You have a weird mind and you cast these spells" type of deal. The only difference is that the wizard has a spell book and a familiar and the psion has their mind, a psicrystal, and different spells.

Meanwhile D&D's sorcerer is very specifically "for weird subclass specific reasons you can cast these spells" type of deal. The Aberrant Mind Sorcerer fits that perfectly (give or take a Far Realm overtone).

Tassadar from Starcraft (or heck, the entire Protoss force) don't cast Thought Talk or whatever, they can just project voices into other people and have a psychic link between them all,

Indeed. Tassadar is not a Psion. He's psionic. A Soulknife would just use Psychic Whispers.

A Psion would meanwhile not cast "Thoughttalk" but cast Mindlink or even Suggestion (Psionic).

The wizard, and hell the Magic User entirely, fails miserably at invoking what people want the psion to be. It has everything to do with the lore. It has everything to do with player's expectations at what a psychic character should be capable of. D&D's psionic tropes exist because of the larger use of psychic powers in fiction. Heck, the whole pyrokinetic stuff is just Carrie

And all the Psion has ever been is a sorcerer with the serial numbers filed off that uses psionics to cast spells.

I like psionicists who don't cast spells. I like the Soulknife who is an actual, genuine, non-casting psychic. But stop pretending that Psions didn't cast spells just because they cast Teleportation Circle, Psionic rather than Teleportation Circle please.

And the big difference between 5e psionics and 3.X/2e psionics? Yes there are a number of grumblers who want Psions with their 70 pages of spells and nothing else will do. But in practice Psionics are far more common at the tables now than they ever have been. And don't get banned unlike the Psionic splatbooks.

 

[TiQuinn]

But from pure practical standpoint, there is no difference. They serve same purpose, do same thing.

That’s how you process things. Not how everyone processes things.