D&D General What is the right amount of Classes for Dungeons and Dragons?

[TwoSix]

1. Adept
2. Archivist
3. Ardent
4. Aristocrat
5. Artificer
6. Barbarian
7. Bard
8. Basiran Dancer
9. Battle Dancer
10. Beguiler
11. Binder
12. Brigand
13. Cleric
14. Commoner
15. Crusader
16. Death Master
17. Divine Mind
18. Dragon Shaman
19. Dragonfire Adept
20. Dread Necromancer
21. Druid
22. Duskblade
23. Eidolon
24. Eidoloncer
25. Exemplar
26. Expert
27. Factotum
28. Favored Soul
29. Fighter
30. Friar
31. Gladiator
32. Healer
33. Hexblade
34. Incarnate
35. Infiltrator
36. Inventor
37. Jester
38. Knight
39. Lurk
40. Magewright
41. Magnifico
42. Mariner
43. Marshal
44. Master
45. Monk
46. Mountebank
47. Mystic
48. Nightstalker
49. Ninja
50. Noble
51. Paladin
52. Psion
53. Psychic Rogue
54. Psychic Warrior
55. Ranger
56. Rogue
57. Samurai
58. Savant
59. Scout
60. Shadowcaster
61. Sha'ir
62. Shaman
63. Shugenja
64. Sohei
65. Sorcerer
66. Soulborn
67. Soulknife
68. Spellcaster
69. Spellsinger
70. Spellthief
71. Spirit Shaman
72. Swashbuckler
73. Swordsage
74. Totemist
75. Truenamer
76. Urban Adept
77. Voodan
78. Warblade
79. Warlock
80. Warmage
81. Warrior
82. Wilder
83. Wizard
84. Wu Jen

I actually think this list has some holes, honestly.

That looks like the 3.5 list of classes, along with some of the more popular third party stuff.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Something that captures the flavor of the psion, which has a few key points:

1. IS NOT SPELLCASTING. If it's the same as a wizard, it's not a psion. This has been the core feature of psionics for 45 years by now, and at no point has "just make them like every other spellcaster but call them psions" ever been seen as an acceptable answer.

Except that this is a spell with only some of the serial numbers filed off. (And remember that I'm using a different one of them each time).

Plane Shift, Psionic​

Psychoportation​

Level: Psion/wilder 5​

Display: Visual​

Manifesting Time: 1 standard action​

Range: Touch​

Target: Willing creature touched, or up to eight willing creatures joining hands​

Duration: Instantaneous​

Power Points: 9​

​

As the plane shift spell, except as noted here.​

Psions (outside 4e) are wizards with the serial numbers filed off.

but just calling a sorcerer a psion while making them wave a wand and chant an incantation ain't gonna cut it.

Which is why the Aberrant Mind doesn't do that. Here's what it does.

Psionic Sorcery​

Beginning at 6th level, when you cast any spell of 1st level or higher from your Psionic Spells feature, you can cast it by expending a spell slot as normal or by spending a number of sorcery points equal to the spell's level. If you cast the spell using sorcery points, it requires no verbal or somatic components, and it requires no material components, unless they are consumed by the spell.​

No verbal, somatic, or material components. And uses spell points (by way of sorcery points) rather than spell slots.

One D&D Great Old Ones get:

LEVEL 3: PSYCHIC SPELLS​

When you cast a Warlock spell that deals damage, you can change its damage type to Psychic. In addition, when you cast a Warlock spell that is an Enchantment or Illusion, you can do so without verbal or somatic components.​

No one is saying that psychic sorcerers or warlocks should, after their initial learning, flail around with wands and magic words (and I hope that Aberrant Minds get to stop at 3rd level in 5.24). The fact that first and second level psychic warlocks need to chant and gesture until they get better I don't see as a problem; they are just learning and think they are more like other casters.

2. Is based on pure mental discipline, not components or special words or items needed.

3. Focuses on the kinds of powers psychic are known for in fiction: telepathy, telekinesis, etc.

4. Ties into the existing psionic lore of DnD, like Mind Flayers and Gith and aboleths.

All of which Aberrant Minds and 5.24 GOOlocks nail

 

[Neonchameleon]

i think maybe it's less a question of what effects can't they do but a question of scale, finesse and power. wizard is the ultimate generalist, but a generalist ultimately should be outmatched in any given area by a specialist.

This I can definitely accept. It's also what OneD&D has gone for for the sorcerer who has more power when they chose with their Arcane Surge and more finesse thanks to Metamagic.

 

[jmartkdr2]

Except that this is a spell with only some of the serial numbers filed off. (And remember that I'm using a different one of them each time).

Plane Shift, Psionic​

Psychoportation​

Level: Psion/wilder 5​

Display: Visual​

Manifesting Time: 1 standard action​

Range: Touch​

Target: Willing creature touched, or up to eight willing creatures joining hands​

Duration: Instantaneous​

Power Points: 9​

​

As the plane shift spell, except as noted here.​

No components, not a spell.

Psionics are magic, but they're not spells.

Psions (outside 4e) are wizards with the serial numbers filed off.

Which is why the Aberrant Mind doesn't do that. Here's what it does.

Psionic Sorcery​

Beginning at 6th level, when you cast any spell of 1st level or higher from your Psionic Spells feature, you can cast it by expending a spell slot as normal or by spending a number of sorcery points equal to the spell's level. If you cast the spell using sorcery points, it requires no verbal or somatic components, and it requires no material components, unless they are consumed by the spell.​

No verbal, somatic, or material components. And uses spell points (by way of sorcery points) rather than spell slots.

Cool! Why are we casting spells for 5 levels before playing the concept we chose at first level?

One D&D Great Old Ones get:

LEVEL 3: PSYCHIC SPELLS​

When you cast a Warlock spell that deals damage, you can change its damage type to Psychic. In addition, when you cast a Warlock spell that is an Enchantment or Illusion, you can do so without verbal or somatic components.​

No one is saying that psychic sorcerers or warlocks should, after their initial learning, flail around with wands and magic words (and I hope that Aberrant Minds get to stop at 3rd level in 5.24). The fact that first and second level psychic warlocks need to chant and gesture until they get better I don't see as a problem; they are just learning and think they are more like other casters.

All of which Aberrant Minds and 5.24 GOOlocks nail

Yeah, the 2024 version is at least twice as good at pulling this off as the 2014 version, but still only 95% of the way there.

Psions don't learn to become psions by being something else first; that's just a weird way to handle it. It's be like having clerics be arcane casters until level 3 when they gain divine spellcasting as a feature.

 

[Yaarel]

All of which Aberrant Minds and 5.24 GOOlocks nail

The whole point of Psionic is the power of ones own mind, ones own soul.

Aberrant and Goo fail because their character concepts are dependent on something else or someone else external ones own innate consciousness.

I would NEVER use Sorcerer or Warlock for a Psion. Their flavors are way, way, way, too wrong.


The Warlock mechanical chassis is excellent for the Psion, with atwills, choosable features, fatiguing spell casting, and powerful high tier slots, and especially if a Short Rest spell point system.

 

[Mind of tempest]

A PHB GOOlock is a caster with telepathy and some of the more psychic spells.

A OneD&D GOOlock has things like explicitly psychic spells, a beefed up Awakened Mind, and replaces its entropic shield with the ability to use telepathy offensively to get advantage against them and force them to have disadvantage on attack rolls against you. It's as psychic as a psion and a better representation of a wide array of fictional psionics than someone who just casts spells using spell points (other than filing the serial numbers off the spell part).

Not my fault that you aren't as deft with words or as close to psionics as the average bard.

I want the psion to stay in its rightful place in D&D. Six foot underground and well tamped down, with the Aberrant Mind having a lower overhead and being a more strongly thematic implementation of 90% of the psionicists that would fit that group.

The Mystic had some interesting things going on. Alternate casting systems are worth looking at - but the Psion barely even qualified as that. If someone were to try to resurrect Truenaming or Incarnum I'd wish them luck.

my inference on the words front seemed not to translate there are no words to express my outrage at such a suggestion wait you do see the psion and mystic are just the evolutionary line of the same thing one just grew a more fantasy name?

Which leads to the question of what effects you think a wizard shouldn't be able to learn to do?

any more than it has to stop them getting any more like Rick Sanchez.

1. Mountebank

what is a Mountebank?

 

[Minigiant]

The fewer magic powers that a character has the harder it is to balance. A broad smattering of relatively weak powers is easier to balance than a few powers because with a few powers either there are too many times when what you can do isn't relevant or else that one power is a hammer than can pound any nail. This is the "Potence is Every Discipline" or "Johnny One-Power" problem.

I don't see how this make any sense when we've had Martial classes who pretty much just do one thing over and over.

How is the "I Attack" Fighter fine, easy to design, and desired but the "I Mind Push" or "I Mind Burn" Psion awful, hard to design, and repulsive?

 

[Mind of tempest]

No components, not a spell.

Psionics are magic, but they're not spells.

Cool! Why are we casting spells for 5 levels before playing the concept we chose at first level?

Yeah, the 2024 version is at least twice as good at pulling this off as the 2014 version, but still only 95% of the way there.

Psions don't learn to become psions by being something else first; that's just a weird way to handle it. It's be like having clerics be arcane casters until level 3 when they gain divine spellcasting as a feature.

who plays with spell components I have not seen anyone do that?

The whole point of Psionic is the power of ones own mind, ones own soul.

Aberrant and Goo fail because their character concepts are dependent on something else or someone else external ones own innate consciousness.

I would NEVER use Sorcerer or Warlock for a Psion. Their flavors are way, way, way, too wrong.


The Warlock mechanical chassis is excellent for the Psion, with atwills, choosable features, fatiguing spell casting, and powerful high tier slots, and especially if a Short Rest spell point system.

warlocks are diet clerics thematically and aberrants are thematically made from one type of encounter it

 

[Neonchameleon]

No components, not a spell.

So Aberrant Minds and GOOlocks are fine. We're agreed.

Me, I don't think it's the components that make the spell.

Cool! Why are we casting spells for 5 levels before playing the concept we chose at first level?

Five is too many. Two I'd say is fine.

Yeah, the 2024 version is at least twice as good at pulling this off as the 2014 version, but still only 95% of the way there.

Which makes them both 50% better than any version of Psions ever - and at a much lower overhead.

Psions don't learn to become psions by being something else first; that's just a weird way to handle it. It's be like having clerics be arcane casters until level 3 when they gain divine spellcasting as a feature.

To illustrate why there is no problem with level 1 and 2 psychics having verbal and somatic components we can actually look at fictional depictions of psychics. When Eleven (another far-realm connected psychic) tilts her head and glares at something hard, not letting her gaze leave it that is a somatic component. When Professor X raises his hands to his head for a psychic power that is a somatic component. When Luke reached his hand out in the ice cave in Hoth to help him grab the lightsabre that too was a somatic component. If Eleven were to chant under her breath "Fall... Fall... Fall..." when trying to impact something with telekinesis that would be a verbal component.

Characters at the training wheels levels (1 and 2) needing mantras and gestures that are tied to what they are trying to do with their psychic powers while growing out of it at higher levels I do not see as a problem. I see it as a growth in expertise. And if level 1 and 2 characters think (because spells are more common than psionics) that they need to make the normal magical symbols and gestures and concentrate too much on those I again see no problem. Level 6 I agree is too high.

This isn't them being something else first. It's them not needing training wheels.

 

[Celebrim]

Something that captures the flavor of the psion, which has a few key points:

OK, sounds fine. I can work with that provide it's an internally consistent request. Let's see.

If you really think you'll just convince all the players who aren't satisfied with wizards-as-psions with your brand-new, never-before-suggested "just reflavor it!" argument you really have not been reading the room - for 45 years.

Wait a minute? I thought you just needed something to capture the flavor of the psionic. Now you are saying that to capture the flavor you need ... mechanical differences? What does that have to do with flavor?

1. IS NOT SPELLCASTING.

That's an absolute non-starter. It is and always has been spellcasting. Sure, maybe it's spellcasting by a different means based on your inherent magical ability rather than learning and study, but it's always been spellcasting. Sure, maybe it wasn't originally modelled with spell slots but mana points because originally it represented non-class based magic that wasn't tied to your level (and didn't increase) and so spell slots by level were awkward , but it's always been spellcasting. "Psionics" (how do I hate that word) are just psychic powers, which you will later admit yourself. So if you are going to admit that its just psychic powers, then it's spellcasting no ifs ands or buts.

Again, if really this just comes down to "BUT I WANT MY SPELL POINTS!" or "I HAVE TO BE DIFFERENT!" then I'm really not interested and there are tons of rational reasons for that. For example, if you come to me insisting that you have to have two magic systems that are incompatible and one of them isn't really magic even though its really magic then I have to take account of that when stocking or generating magical treasure. I now have to have magical treasure that just works for arcane casters and magical treasure that just works for psionic casters. And that totally trumps, "I HAVE TO BE DIFFERENT!" because your difference is making the game suck. Likewise, I don't need complicated interactions to debate like does this bypass spell resistance or does it detect as magic when someone uses a psionic power in the presence of a magical sensor. It's all going to be magic, so that it "IS NOT SPELLCASTING" is just not even remotely something to negotiate when designing hypothetical edition.

but just calling a sorcerer a psion while making them wave a wand and chant an incantation ain't gonna cut it

Now that I can be on board with, but really it's just a statement of your second note.

2. Is based on pure mental discipline, not components or special words or items needed.

OK, so first arcane magic is already based on mental discipline so all this really says is you want your "psion" to be able to eschew spell components. You want no verbal, somatic, or material components in order to work magic. And OK, that's a thing, and with material components it's not even a big thing because hardly anyone tracks them anyway. They are mostly there to impose costs on rare ritual magic or to allow wizards to be imprisoned and the like. But, it's worth noting that verbal and somatic components are regular and frequent restrictions on the use of magic that matters in very meaningful ways. Like if you want to cast a spell at a dinner party it's a huge advantage if you can do it still and silent. And what your really asking for is to get away with things if they fail their saving throw because who did that, right? So what you are really asking for here is to be a Sorcerer but better. Not just a little better but A LOT BETTER.

Worse, often what you are really asking for here is advantage on surprise or Quickened magic. With no warning about a spell being cast and no actions to take place to do the magic, what the player is often asking for is the power to always win surprise, to go first, and to take no time doing it. It's like the player that thinks he deserves surprise by describing how sudden his attack is and by announcing it first he won it. And I think that's a massive advantage if it can be argued for and generally dysfunctional otherwise.

I'm not unsympathetic to the request to do most of your magic Still and Silent, but this is a very valuable thing you are asking for and so you are going to have to give up a bunch or else except that things can only be Still and Silent in a very narrow domain in order to prevent abuse. Are you with me on that or is what you are really asking for is just I HAVE TO BE BETTER THAN THE WIZARD! Eh?

Focuses on the kinds of powers psychic are known for in fiction: telepathy, telekinesis, etc.

Yes, but psychic powers are just spellcasting and traditional wizard powers. And the more broadly you define psychic powers like psychic surgery, pyrokinesis, detect spirits, communicate with the dead and so forth the more it's obvious that what you are really asking for is be the wizard but better since you are clearly doing it all anyway but with far less restrictions. So really, there is no focus here or narrowing down of powers. Psychic powers straddle the arcane/divine line because they are ultimately rooted in traditional Western shamanistic and occult practice, just rebranded late in the 19th century when superstition became socially problematic. (See also Theurgy and White Magic in the middle ages for similar but different reasons.)

Ties into the existing psionic lore of DnD, like Mind Flayers and Gith and aboleths.

Sure, that's not hard. In my game you might be like, "Grandfather was once an aboleth slave before he escaped, but he escaped changed and now my family is blessed or cursed with strange powers in their blood and some members of the family manifest strange mental powers!" Totally acceptable backstory.