D&D General What is the right amount of Classes for Dungeons and Dragons?

[Celebrim]

what is a Mountebank?

A con artist.

 

[Neonchameleon]

The whole point of Psionic is the power of ones own mind, ones own soul.

Is it?

Aberrant and Goo fail because their character concepts are dependent on something else or someone else external ones own innate consciousness.

Sorcerers don't. Sorcerers can be all about internal power. The thing is that they have them and something is different from most people.

As an Aberrant Mind sorcerer, you decide how you acquired your powers. Were you born with them? Or did an event later in life leave you shining with psionic awareness?​

GOO? As I have said Jean Grey has the Phoenix Force. Lyta Alexander of Babylon 5 was definitely a GOOlock. And I'd argue that a whole lot of 40k psychics are GOOlocks (and most of the rest are Aberrant Minds).

I would NEVER use Sorcerer or Warlock for a Psion. Their flavors are way, way, way, too wrong.


The Warlock mechanical chassis is excellent for the Psion, with atwills, choosable features, fatiguing spell casting, and powerful high tier slots, and especially if a Short Rest spell point system.

shrug I'm a "Fluff is free" person. And the only thing I'd need to do for the 3.24 GOOlock mechanically is ignore the Contact Patron feature at level 9.

 

[Vael]

The Mystic had some interesting things going on. Alternate casting systems are worth looking at - but the Psion barely even qualified as that. If someone were to try to resurrect Truenaming or Incarnum I'd wish them luck.

Lol, I must be one of the few Incarnum fans, I've a few half-baked attempts at an Incarnum system for 5e.

 

[CreamCloud0]

Wait a minute? I thought you just needed something to capture the flavor of the psionic. Now you are saying that to capture the flavor you need ... mechanical differences? What does that have to do with flavor?

is it that complicated a concept that a class who's fundamental flavour is that it uses an entirely different kind of power from magic might have that flavour be reinforced by having mechanics that work different from magic?

 

[Celebrim]

I don't see how this make any sense when we've had Martial classes who pretty much just do one thing over and over.

How is the "I Attack" Fighter fine, easy to design, and desired but the "I Mind Push" or "I Mind Burn" Psion awful, hard to design, and repulsive?

Because the "I Attack" fighter is terrible design to? I mean, I can point you to the threads on this boards where people talk about just how terrible of a design that is. Here is one of mine as a sample: D&D General - The Linear Fighter/Quadratic Wizard Problem

Designing the fighter is one of the hardest challenges in D&D and it's so rarely done well. Probably the 1e AD&D fighter was the most balanced fighter the game has ever had. The 3e one was so bad it was famously unplayable and generally considered a tier 7 class that wasn't even good at its own schtick.

 

[Celebrim]

is it that complicated a concept that a class who's fundamental flavour is that it uses an entirely different kind of power from magic might have that flavour be reinforced by having mechanics that work different from magic?

Because it does not and never has used an entirely different kind of power than magic. It's just magic. The more you look at it, the more obviously it's just a wizard in a different set of robes. There is so much overlap. Crystals. Mental discipline. Mind over matter. Rigorously training the mind. Second sight and reading minds and all that is just wizardly stuff. And it's not surprising that it's just wizardly stuff when you start tracking back where it all comes from.

But even if it was a "entirely different sort of power" whatever the heck that means despite producing pretty much the exact same effects - I have telekinesis and you have telekinesis - why would it need different mechanics? Surely what matters is the produced effect in the fiction, not the rules that exist outside of the fiction?

 

[billd91]

Something that captures the flavor of the psion, which has a few key points:

1. IS NOT SPELLCASTING. If it's the same as a wizard, it's not a psion. This has been the core feature of psionics for 45 years by now, and at no point has "just make them like every other spellcaster but call them psions" ever been seen as an acceptable answer. It doesn't need to be very different or wholly unique -the difference between spellcasting and pact magic is enough of a change, but just calling a sorcerer a psion while making them wave a wand and chant an incantation ain't gonna cut it. If you really think you'll just convince all the players who aren't satisfied with wizards-as-psions with your brand-new, never-before-suggested "just reflavor it!" argument you really have not been reading the room - for 45 years.

2. Is based on pure mental discipline, not components or special words or items needed.

3. Focuses on the kinds of powers psychic are known for in fiction: telepathy, telekinesis, etc.

4. Ties into the existing psionic lore of DnD, like Mind Flayers and Gith and aboleths.

Well, depending on how you want psionics to work, they might be very similar to spell casting and magic in general... or not. But the farther you deviate from reskinning a spell caster class, the more work you have to do and the more you have to do to integrate it into the system that already exists.
I think it's arguable that a psion could very well be much like a reskinned wizard but with their powers (reskinned spells) having a thematic that fits in with fictional tradition of psionics. But other things may need a more significant transformation.

To illustrate why there is no problem with level 1 and 2 psychics having verbal and somatic components we can actually look at fictional depictions of psychics. When Eleven (another far-realm connected psychic) tilts her head and glares at something hard, not letting her gaze leave it that is a somatic component. When Professor X raises his hands to his head for a psychic power that is a somatic component. When Luke reached his hand out in the ice cave in Hoth to help him grab the lightsabre that too was a somatic component. If Eleven were to chant under her breath "Fall... Fall... Fall..." when trying to impact something with telekinesis that would be a verbal component.

And here's where we would probably want some of that transformation beyond simple reskinning to be. Looking at fictional psychics - some seem to involve somatic components but is that always by necessity and should the downstream effects of treating them as somatic components apply? Tying a wizard up tends to make somatic components impossible - should a psion be similarly hampered? Professor X can usually use his mental powers even when physically restrained.
Looking at the game engine, we probably want some kind of component so we can offer some restrictions on how the powers are deployed and how they might be countered. But we probably don't want to use the same ones wizards and other spellcasters use if we want satisfying psions rather than sloppy paint jobs on top of wizards. PF1 went with emotional and thought components - each of which could be disrupted under certain circumstances. But, honestly, I'm not that keen on them since neither is too disruptable via mundane means - unlike traditional spell casting components (gags, manacles, rope, taking a component pouch).

And then, of course, we have the decision about whether or not psionics are truly magic and affectable in all the same ways (anti-magic field, counterspell, detect magic, dispel magic, magic resistance) or they're something else entirely. If the former, integration is easy. Not so with the latter.

 

[CreamCloud0]

Because it does not and never has used an entirely different kind of power than magic. It's just magic. The more you look at it, the more obviously it's just a wizard in a different set of robes. There is so much overlap. Crystals. Mental discipline. Mind over matter. Rigorously training the mind. Second sight and reading minds and all that is just wizardly stuff. And it's not surprising that it's just wizardly stuff when you start tracking back where it all comes from.

But even if it was a "entirely different sort of power" whatever the heck that means despite producing pretty much the exact same effects - I have telekinesis and you have telekinesis - why would it need different mechanics? Surely what matters is the produced effect in the fiction, not the rules that exist outside of the fiction?

it's. not. magic. please stop insisting they are, the nuances and differences of the process are important and your disregard for them is insulting to everyone who actually cares, just because they can achieve vaguely the same end result does not mean they are the same thing, your refusal to acknowledge their basic premise is not helping your case in us valuing your input.

 

[Celebrim]

it's. not. magic

I mean it's magic. What is magic? What is psionic? Just because they are two different words doesn't make them two different things. Psychic powers are magic. Magic is psychic powers. Psionic is just psychic powers. It's all the same getting the universe to conform to your wishes through the power of your will. That's magic. I mean to the extent magic being something that doesn't exist has a definition, that's its definition. It's not accidentally achieving the same effects. It's achieving the same effects because it's the same thing with roots in the same historical beliefs and traditions.

 

[CreamCloud0]

I mean it's magic. What is magic? What is psionic? Just because they are two different words doesn't make them two different things. Psychic powers are magic. Magic is psychic powers. Psionic is just psychic powers. It's all the same getting the universe to conform to your wishes through the power of your will. That's magic. I mean to the extent magic being something that doesn't exist has a definition, that's its definition. It's not accidentally achieving the same effects. It's achieving the same effects because it's the same thing with roots in the same historical beliefs and traditions.

but the words we use do make them different things, the lines we draw are important to the fantasy, it's all made up but that doesn't make it all the same,