D&D 5E Which classes have the least identity?

[Remathilis]

don't think that the Shadow system is "THE solution" to the problem or, really, the problems as there are a series of related potential problems involved. I was, however, curious about what someone like @Remathilis would think about such a solution of the Shadow system, which has both basic classes but also hyper-specialized ones.

As stated, I find it just being extra steps to get to where I want to go.

Occasionally, a Final Fantasy game will implement a job system where you start as one class and then slowly learn more and more advanced jobs as you go along. There have been my least favorite FF games. I don't feel I ever master any class or get a feel from it, I just am always looking to the next "advanced" class because its giving me better stuff. My character isn't defined by an archetype, he's an amalgam of whatever classes and features synergize best.

 

[Aldarc]

As stated, I find it just being extra steps to get to where I want to go.

Occasionally, a Final Fantasy game will implement a job system where you start as one class and then slowly learn more and more advanced jobs as you go along. There have been my least favorite FF games. I don't feel I ever master any class or get a feel from it, I just am always looking to the next "advanced" class because its giving me better stuff. My character isn't defined by an archetype, he's an amalgam of whatever classes and features synergize best.

Okay. Now my next question is whether you have heard about Fabula Ultima: The Tabletop JRPG.

The game has classes, but really they are "jobs." Jobs in the core book include Arcanist, Chimerist, Darkblade, Elementalist, Entropist, Fury, Guardian, Loremaster, Orator, Rogue, Sharpshooter, Spirtist, Tinkerer, Wayfinder, Weaponmaster. There are more in other supplements. Jobs are just a collection of thematically-similar abilities. A starting character starts at level 5, and they have to multiclass with 2-3 classes. You can only multiclass in three classes before you have to get at least one to 10th level before you can multiclass into another class. You finish at a class after taking 10 levels in the class, but that doesn't mean that you get every ability as a result. You reach max level at level 50.

 

[Remathilis]

Okay. Now my next question is whether you have heard about Fabula Ultima: The Tabletop JRPG.

The game has classes, but really they are "jobs." Jobs in the core book include Arcanist, Chimerist, Darkblade, Elementalist, Entropist, Fury, Guardian, Loremaster, Orator, Rogue, Sharpshooter, Spirtist, Tinkerer, Wayfinder, Weaponmaster. There are more in other supplements. Jobs are just a collection of thematically-similar abilities. A starting character starts at level 5, and they have to multiclass with 2-3 classes. You can only multiclass in three classes before you have to get at least one to 10th level before you can multiclass into another class. You finish at a class after taking 10 levels in the class, but that doesn't mean that you get every ability as a result. You reach max level at level 50.

I'm sure it appeals to the kind of "jack of all trades" player who wants to fight with a sword, brew a potion, cast a spell, pick a pocket, compose a sonnet, and track a pack of orcs across a field, but to be frank that is essentially a classless system with talent trees and a restriction on how many trees you can be in. Such systems, IMHO, tend to produce hypergeneralists who all are mediocre at everything rather than being good at something.

And if that's your goal, that's fine too. I have found from playing various RPGs over the years that classes with defined archetypes and niches tend to have the best flavor, be better balanced, and support their concept better than systems where a few classes must try to be both a floor wax and a dessert topping.

 

[Aldarc]

I'm sure it appeals to the kind of "jack of all trades" player who wants to fight with a sword, brew a potion, cast a spell, pick a pocket, compose a sonnet, and track a pack of orcs across a field, but to be frank that is essentially a classless system with talent trees and a restriction on how many trees you can be in. Such systems, IMHO, tend to produce hypergeneralists who all are mediocre at everything rather than being good at something.

And if that's your goal, that's fine too. I have found from playing various RPGs over the years that classes with defined archetypes and niches tend to have the best flavor, be better balanced, and support their concept better than systems where a few classes must try to be both a floor wax and a dessert topping.

It would honestly be nice if you would bother giving these things a good faith reading rather than looking to dismiss everything with barely a first glance. You don't know what sort of characters are produced from this system. You don't ask. You have no experience with these games, but you are certainly quick to cast your negative judgment about them. I guess there is little point in attempting to engage in further attempts for friendly discussion.

 

[FrogReaver]

Sigh. I really need to stop using analogies. Everyone wants to attack the analogy (even when I ask them not to) rather than the point itself.

Having a choice where some choices are bad and some choices are strictly better really doesn't have any merit. Saying "well, what if a player wants to make a sub-optimal choice?" is the kind of thing that led me back when I played 2e to make a Fighter specialized in the whip because I really liked Castlevania, without realizing that just because the whip exists in the game, and I have the option to specialize in it's use, doesn't make that a viable option.

The fact that someone can come up with a potential scenario where the whip might be good when the vast majority of the time it's bad doesn't make it a good choice.

...hell. I just made another analogy. I guess I should expect a lot of "actually, whips are very excellent choices in my experience" next.

I think some would rather have a choice, even a ‘bad choice’ over no choice at all.

In fact I think id hate a game where all choices were equally effective in all situations. Part of the fun is figuring out how to play well.

 

[Horwath]

You're missing the entire point. It's not a bad feat. It's just one that you don't like because your personal priority is combat. You like good gas mileage. I don't care about combat, because those few extra plusses in combat don't matter enough to notice. I want a gas guzzler that will take me off road where I can really have fun

Feats and other things shouldn't force me to have good gas mileage just because that's what you personally prefer.

hey, if you want, you can put that +1 to any stat, it does not need to be combat primary, it can be stat that helps your exploration ability(your off road)

 

[Remathilis]

It would honestly be nice if you would bother giving these things a good faith reading rather than looking to dismiss everything with barely a first glance. You don't know what sort of characters are produced from this system. You don't ask. You have no experience with these games, but you are certainly quick to cast your negative judgment about them. I guess there is little point in attempting to engage in further attempts for friendly discussion.

I'm not doing homework for an Internet discussion. I stated a preference towards classes with strong archetypes like paladin, warlock or monk. You have tried twice to sell me on systems that do not do that as if to prove my preference is faulty. I have humored you by providing my general impressions, but I'm not about to learn a new system to provide criticism of it.

 

[CreamCloud0]

Which in 5e means that they have a ton of gold and nothing to spend it on but gas!!

But seriously, they do get the extra money, because things are often give and take. If instead of taking a combat feat I want to take Dungeon Delver because it fits my character vision better, I am paying more for gas(less effectiveness in combat) in order to be better off road(be better out of combat with traps and finding secret doors.

no they don't get extra money, fighters might have feats to customise what they do have but that's not extra stuff they get, they're still fundamentally miles behind in 'build points' to some other classes, fighter has like Combat:6/10, Exploration:1/10, Social 2/10 with feats serving as maybe 2 extra points to assign, but a wizard has like Combat:8/10, Exploration:9/10, Social 7/10 because they have a secret 'magic' stat that passively buffs all their capabilities in the areas they can pick up spells for.

there are classes who are behind who don't get extra money for gas.

 

[TwoSix]

As stated, I find it just being extra steps to get to where I want to go.

Occasionally, a Final Fantasy game will implement a job system where you start as one class and then slowly learn more and more advanced jobs as you go along. There have been my least favorite FF games. I don't feel I ever master any class or get a feel from it, I just am always looking to the next "advanced" class because its giving me better stuff. My character isn't defined by an archetype, he's an amalgam of whatever classes and features synergize best.

Yea, if you don't like FF job systems, then stuff like the Shadow system definitely isn't for you.

At my core, I don't want my characters to be defined by an archetype; I want those characters defined by multiple experiences that render them unique by the combination of myriad features they've acquired.

I value archetypes purely so I can subvert them.

 

[Remathilis]

Yea, if you don't like FF job systems, then stuff like the Shadow system definitely isn't for you.

At my core, I don't want my characters to be defined by an archetype; I want those characters defined by multiple experiences that render them unique by the combination of myriad features they've acquired.

I value archetypes purely so I can subvert them.

That's a fine way to play if you like it.

I actually like being a knight or a bard or a monk. I like starting as one and getting better at it. I don't mind a subclass that lets me pick up small amounts of another archetype (like the monk/bard dancer or fighter/mage EK) if I want. It's a preference thing.