D&D General Deleted

I also find it weird that you don't think LAWFUL Neutral shares tenets with and informs aspects of LAWFUL Good. Do you think Lawful means something different for each of these terms? With no connections?
I think it means different things, with some connection.

Lawful Good is NOT Law + Good, rather it is its own thing distinct from the other eight alignments. It is not merely an amalgamation of Neutral Good and Lawful Neutral.

But I'm an odd duck it seems. This is a tangent of a tangent, however.
 

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So just about the mechanical framework then? What about the "DnD" part? Are you just talking about WotC 5e? Other versions have had different assumptions.

I'm not playing 20 questions with you Micah.

Chivalric Knight stories assuming Providence assume an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-good god who is inevitably defeating evil, and all you must do to defeat evil is believe in that god and follow his teachings, and evil will inevitably lose.

DnD doesn't present that. The gods are not all powerful. They are not all knowing. They are not all good, even the good ones, and evil is defeated by constant struggle against it, not faith and belief in the one true god above all and his perfect teachings.

This isn't just WoTC's 5e, pantheons have existed since 1e. Non-good, non-omnicienst, non-omnipotent gods have existed since 1e. And yes, rolling dice to see if you succeed or fail, instead of succeeding because you are a person with a pure heart, has existed since 1e.
 

I find it interesting that people assumed the gods are involved at all. It never seemed that way to me.

There was a time when the party wanted to go on an assassination run for an evil warlord and were shocked when I, playing a paladin, was up for it. "But you're honorable!" "Yes, I am. And when we corner the individual that is unquestionably, even boastfully responsible for all of this suffering I will introduce myself and announce his crimes. He will taste my steel. It will be difficult to bring Justice to him if I am covered in boiling oil at the front gates." There was then about a half-hour discussion that ended with me saying something like "you seem to think that the class' name is "*hole" and not paladin. It's not. As long as I am protecting people and putting paid to the bad guys, we're good."

Things were smoother after that.

This! Exactly!
 

I'm not playing 20 questions with you Micah.

Chivalric Knight stories assuming Providence assume an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-good god who is inevitably defeating evil, and all you must do to defeat evil is believe in that god and follow his teachings, and evil will inevitably lose.

DnD doesn't present that. The gods are not all powerful. They are not all knowing. They are not all good, even the good ones, and evil is defeated by constant struggle against it, not faith and belief in the one true god above all and his perfect teachings.

This isn't just WoTC's 5e, pantheons have existed since 1e. Non-good, non-omnicienst, non-omnipotent gods have existed since 1e. And yes, rolling dice to see if you succeed or fail, instead of succeeding because you are a person with a pure heart, has existed since 1e.
But there are plenty of people who do believe those things on the worlds of D&D. And act on them. Therefore, that is part of the world. While the gods may not be omniscient from an "outside looking in" perspective, for many/most of their followers, they probably are, and their actions are influenced by that belief. Ignoring the in-universe point of view doesn't seem right to me.
 

Importantly in both those version, the rules around chaotic behavior seem a bit more lenient to me than evil behavior. It says that chaotic behavior has to be performed knowingly for it to be an issue. While even evil acts performed knowingly or under mind control would constitute a problem for the paladin. Also the punishment for performing a chaotic act is penance while the punishment for performing an evil act is loss of paladin hood. This suggests to me that a Paladin trying to weigh lying against saving a life, wouldnt' have to atone if they lied to prevent evil (or whatever impossible choice you want to give a paladin). Evil is the much bigger consideration I think
Lying is evil, not chaotic, in AD&D. From the PHB p 33:

Lawful Evil: Creatures of this alignment are great respecters of laws and strict order, but life, beauty, truth, freedom and the like are held as valueless, or at least scorned. . . .

Lawful Good: While as strict in their prosecution of law and order, characters of lawful good alignment follow these precepts to improve the common weal. Certain freedoms must, of course, be sacrificed in order to bring order; but truth is of highest value, and life and beauty of great importance. The benefits of this society are to be brought to all.[/indent[

This is consistent with the overall tenor of Gygax's alignment: all value falls within the domain of good, and what characterises evil is scorn for value, and disregard of moral constraints on action.​
 

Yes. IF you apply that to the heroes of DnD, that would mean that, 1v1 any character who uses stealth or magic (is false) would lose to a character who does not (is true).
No. This is why, upthread, I posted that you are making assumptions about how action resolution has to work in a RPG that are not correct.

If a knight loses in single combat, maybe this shows that in fact they are false - perhaps they harbour some sin in their heart, or some dark secret.

You are also assuming that the reference to a knight makes no difference, and generalises to all characters. But this is not obvious to me at all. Different people can be held to different moral requirements - this is a fairly basic feature of a moral universe that includes knights, monks, oath-swearers, etc.

That the resolution of whether an action succeeds or fails is based on a die roll, random chance, not because an almighty, omniscient being of pure good is putting their thumb on the scale to ensure that those with a pure heart and pure intentions always succeed and are stronger than evil.
Again, you are making assumptions about action resolution. Yes, in the real world we roll a die. That doesn't mean that, in the fiction, the outcome is a product of random chance.

I suppose valid would mean coherent. I mean, you are the one who called them "invalid".
No I didn't. You used the word "valid", and I repeated it in inverted commas - "Of course they're not 'valid'" (post 330). When I was using my own terminology, I said "We already know that LN and CN people are not good. So what is their opinion worth?"

A CN Nihilist has a valid point of view. It isn't a healthy or helpful point of view, but it is valid and coherent and a point of view someone could hold.
Of course people can be LN or CN. People can be mass murderers too. That doesn't make any of those viewpoints and associated behaviours morally worthy, or "valid". It just means that some people don't affirm value, respect human life, and act as morality demands.

There ARE people like this, these people DO exist, their world view is coherent and logical.
Is it? Kant doesn't think so. Plato doesn't think so. Peter Singer doesn't think so. Now maybe those philosophers are wrong - this thread isn't really the place to go into the details - but that is not self-evident.

I also find it weird that you don't think LAWFUL Neutral shares tenets with and informs aspects of LAWFUL Good. Do you think Lawful means something different for each of these terms? With no connections?
In the alignment system presented in Gygax's PHB and DMG, LG believe that social order and external constraint will produce good - human wellbeing, happiness, truth and beauty. Maybe they are right, maybe they are wrong - the alignment system raises that question but doesn't answer it.

LN people, on the other hand, are order fetishists - they are committed to upholding order whether or not it conduces to good.

Those are fundamentally different positions. One is committed to good, and has a firm view about the means. The other have mistaken the means for an end.

This is a moral failing one can also see in the real world, quite often, although board rules preclude me nominating examples.
 





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