D&D 5E Advanced D&D or "what to minimally fix in 5E?"

[Minigiant]

I think the DiDism or is or is not 5e comes down to alterations of the core system.

You go to 4 scores instead of 6. Not D&D.
Take out advantage and disadvantage? Not 5E.
Take out skills and replace it with nothing that office that same mechanical support? Not 5e.
Removing Cantrips and rituals from casters? Not 5e.

There's a difference between addition on top of the system and addition while replacing the system.

Once you start messing with the guts it's not 5E anymore and/or not D&D anymore.

 

[Maxperson]

I think the DiDism or is or is not 5e comes down to alterations of the core system.

You go to 4 scores instead of 6. Not D&D.
Take out advantage and disadvantage? Not 5E.
Take out skills and replace it with nothing that office that same mechanical support? Not 5e.
Removing Cantrips and rituals from casters? Not 5e.

There's a difference between addition on top of the system and addition while replacing the system.

Once you start messing with the guts it's not 5E anymore and/or not D&D anymore.

And yet the DMG offers ways to mess with the "guts" of 5e and have it remain 5e.

The Barbarian getting proficiency in Animal Handling, Insight, Medicine, Perception, Survival, Deception, Intimidation, Performance and Persuasion is a lot different than only getting proficiency in Perception and Intimidation. And then instead of getting +2 at those, he gets +1d4 allowing up to twice the normal first level proficiency bonus.

Then we add in Honor and Sanity as two new ability scores, so now we have 8 instead of 6.

I can do both of those with DMG options and drastically alter the game while it still remains D&D 5e. And there are a lot more drastic changes I can enact, adding to the system or replacing the system and it will still be 5e. The definition you are using above doesn't work for figuring out what is or is not D&D or is or is not 5e.

 

[Minigiant]

And yet the DMG offers ways to mess with the "guts" of 5e and have it remain 5e.

The Barbarian getting proficiency in Animal Handling, Insight, Medicine, Perception, Survival, Deception, Intimidation, Performance and Persuasion is a lot different than only getting proficiency in Perception and Intimidation. And then instead of getting +2 at those, he gets +1d4 allowing up to twice the normal first level proficiency bonus.

Then we add in Honor and Sanity as two new ability scores, so now we have 8 instead of 6.

I can do both of those with DMG options and drastically alter the game while it still remains D&D 5e. And there are a lot more drastic changes I can enact, adding to the system or replacing the system and it will still be 5e. The definition you are using above doesn't work for figuring out what is or is not D&D or is or is not 5e.

I don't consider changing the +2 proficiency to +1d4 proficiency a change in the guts as it is not a Mechinical change that any effect on the latter above it.

Same with Honor and Sanity.

You are recalculating back to the same sums or adding on top.

The point is the rule change doesn't require learning other rules. There is no cascading effect. You change one thing and nothing breaks. Nothing is shifted. Nothing the DM has to account for.

Once you change one rule and then have to change another rule to accommodate or compensate for the previous rule, you move away from the source.

 

[Maxperson]

I don't consider changing the +2 proficiency to +1d4 proficiency a change in the guts as it is not a Mechinical change that any effect on the latter above it.

Same with Honor and Sanity.

You are recalculating back to the same sums or adding on top.

The point is the rule change doesn't require learning other rules. There is no cascading effect. You change one thing and nothing breaks. Nothing is shifted. Nothing the DM has to account for.

Once you change one rule and then have to change another rule to accommodate or compensate for the previous rule, you move away from the source.

Honor and Sanity absolutely require learning other rules. There are no rules for either in the base system. You have to learn and understand all the ways in which honor and sanity can affect you both positively and negatively.

Then we can add in the new Fear and Horror rules.

These are additions, but they drastically change how the game is played and the feel of the game. You are in effect removing the 6 stat system and introducing a new 8 stat system. And then altering the game further through Fear and Horror, or maybe just one of those.

Allowing Hit Dice to be Healing Surges in combat is also putting a new system into place.

None of those changes is any less drastic than removing str and dex and adding in physicality as the new stat, and removing wis and int and adding in brains as a new mental stat.

This is the major problem with your theory on what is or is not D&D or a specific edition. D&D was founded on and retains the official permissibility of DM alteration. We are now and always have been encouraged and expected to make the game our own, while still playing D&D and the edition that was the basis for our changes.

Any such changes may not feel like D&D to you, or may feel like D&D, but not 5e to you, but that's only to you. You can say, "That does not feel like D&D to me," but you cannot say, "That is not D&D."

 

[Micah Sweet]

I think the DiDism or is or is not 5e comes down to alterations of the core system.

You go to 4 scores instead of 6. Not D&D.
Take out advantage and disadvantage? Not 5E.
Take out skills and replace it with nothing that office that same mechanical support? Not 5e.
Removing Cantrips and rituals from casters? Not 5e.

There's a difference between addition on top of the system and addition while replacing the system.

Once you start messing with the guts it's not 5E anymore and/or not D&D anymore.

Unless the one messing with the guts is WotC. Then it's D&D no matter what they do. It's odd.

 

[Corinnguard]

Disassociation of Ability Score and Skill are in the Official D&D book.

I don't own the 2014 PHB, so I was unaware that the disassociation of Ability Score and Skill already existed in 5e. So, I assumed that it's appearance in Level Up's Adventurer's Guide was something new that had been added. I spent the last couple minutes looking up this variant rule in the 2014 PHB.

In the Adventurer's Guide, each skill provides examples of using a different ability score for a skill check.

 

[Minigiant]

Unless the one messing with the guts is WotC. Then it's D&D no matter what they do. It's odd.

That's not odd.
They own the IP.

 

[Corinnguard]

That's not odd.
They own the IP.

The oddity is not that D&D is WoTC's IP. It's that some people look at 5e adjacent RPGs such TotV or Level Up and say that they aren't 5e. Both were built using 5e's chassis, and both are compatible with 5e. How can they not be 5e in that regard?

Now if Kobold Press and EN Publishing had created RPGs that used a set of game mechanics that were vastly different than those used in 5e, then everyone would most certainly agree that those RPGs aren't 5e.

 

[Stormonu]

The oddity is not that D&D is WoTC's IP. It's that some people look at 5e adjacent RPGs such TotV or Level Up and say that they aren't 5e. Both were built using 5e's chassis, and both are compatible with 5e. How can they not be 5e in that regard?

Now if Kobold Press and EN Publishing had created RPGs that used a set of game mechanics that were vastly different than those used in 5e, then everyone would most certainly agree that those RPGs aren't 5e.

That can get a bit fuzzy sometimes though - how far can you stray from the mechanics before it's no longer 5E and its own thing? I guess a quick test would be if Xanathar's or Tasha's would be usable out of the box, without having to rewrite the spells and subclasses (I wouldn't compare it against adventures or campaign settings, as you can convert 1E/2E/3E/4E adventures/settings to 5E as we've seen, given the time).

But that's all a Ship of Theseus issue, I guess.

 

[Minigiant]

The oddity is not that D&D is WoTC's IP. It's that some people look at 5e adjacent RPGs such TotV or Level Up and say that they aren't 5e. Both were built using 5e's chassis, and both are compatible with 5e. How can they not be 5e in that regard?

Now if Kobold Press and EN Publishing had created RPGs that used a set of game mechanics that were vastly different than those used in 5e, then everyone would most certainly agree that those RPGs aren't 5e.

TOTV and LU use the 5E chassis though.


IMO
The owner of the name gets to determine the chassis.
Anything that uses that chassis is part of the game.