D&D General What is the right amount of Classes for Dungeons and Dragons?

[jmartkdr2]

Honestly one of the things that bugs me about D&D is how spellcasting feels to me more-generic-than-generic. 4e spellcasting is generic - it has everything in common which means that with just a little imagination you can put whatever spin on it you want.

D&D casting isn't generic outside 4e. It's rigid. Spells all are discrete things, defined differently from anything else and (with the honourable exception of the warlock and arguably the Aberrant Mind) everyone casts spells in the same way with the same levels out of the same slots, with the only differences being which spell list you use and whether you are a full caster, half-caster or just a subclass caster. And because spells are defined this way it means that all spellcasting has common mechanisms.

I find the beancounting slots to be perfect for the wizard and a few derived classes - but am very glad for the existence of the warlock. And would like to see more classes with different casting. I'd like bards to have their own casting methods that feel more ... bardic. Possibly more musical. I can accept clerics being formalist casters - but would like to see druids at the very least moved to warlock style if not their own (which would give them more of a power budget for Wild Shape, Wildfire Spirits, Spore clouds, or whatever); I think low level slow growing things and the occasional natural disaster is perfect for them.

Artificers are fine

Bards should roll Performance checks to cast

Clerics should have 1) a set number of Gifts, some of which are X/day, other are at will, and others do other things. They also should have a robust ritual casting system to cover praying for stuff. Paladins are similar but with different progression and more weapons training.

Druids should work more like PF Kineticists; they can use their powers at will but can only channel one kind of Primal Energy at a time (basically all about concentration). Rangers are similar but they only get one ability that's just always on. (maybe two)

Sorcerers should use spell points.

Warlocks and wizards are fine.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Artificers are fine

Yeah, I'll grant that (almost - I think they can be improved and should get a free permanent item per level) but artificers using arcane casting + item enchantment works.

Bards should roll Performance checks to cast

I want something more than that. The magic itself to be something rhythmic and possibly collaborative. Bards shouldn't be six seconds of "izzy wizzy let's get busy" for their spells. One of the things I want is for the bard's allies to be able to donate their bonus actions to aid the performance for a stronger effect. (This needs to not grow linearly with the number of helpers)

Clerics should have 1) a set number of Gifts, some of which are X/day, other are at will, and others do other things. They also should have a robust ritual casting system to cover praying for stuff. Paladins are similar but with different progression and more weapons training.

Clerics there can be a whole lot of argument about. Including whether "cleric" should even be a thing.

Druids should work more like PF Kineticists; they can use their powers at will but can only channel one kind of Primal Energy at a time (basically all about concentration). Rangers are similar but they only get one ability that's just always on. (maybe two)

I really can't agree about druids. Call Lightning shouldn't be at will. As I say I'm more inclined to a warlockesque chassis. But Druids really need the ability to go big and rise up like a natural disaster, and that takes limited use abilities.

Sorcerers should use spell points.

I can not agree here. Mostly because spell points are in and of themselves an invitation to spam so I don't like the play experience they bring. I want to make wizard a sorcerer subclass...

 

[Aldarc]

I'd go

Core
Cleric- Divine
Druid- Primal
Wizard- Arcane
Warlock- Eldritch

Supplement
Psion- Psionic
Elementalist- Elemental
Shaman- Spirit
Shadowcaster- Shadow
Astrologer- Astral

Bard and Sorcerer would be able to pick their spell list

The big problem with your setup is that the wizard and sorcerer would continue to exist.

 

[Minigiant]

The big problem with your setup is that the wizard and sorcerer would continue to exist.

The wizard is fine. Somebody has to be the arcane.

The sorcerer really should be the alternative version of the spell-list of your choice.

 

[Aldarc]

The wizard is fine. Somebody has to be the arcane.

The sorcerer really should be the alternative version of the spell-list of your choice.

Why does someone have to be arcane? What even is "arcane"? From a lore perspective, arcane was probably the worst defined power source in 4e.

 

[jmartkdr2]

Why does someone have to be arcane? What even is "arcane"? From a lore perspective, arcane was probably the worst defined power source in 4e.

Arcane is someone who, through skill alone, is able to tap into many other power sources a bit for specific effects.

So they should be the most versatile, but should also have the weakest peaks. That's never really been captured.

 

[Minigiant]

Why does someone have to be arcane? What even is "arcane"? From a lore perspective, arcane was probably the worst defined power source in 4e.

Arcane is weird sciencey magic.

That's why it is strange to have Bard, Sorcerer, and Warlock use it. It stinks of traditionalists kludging things together in order to not support new ideas AND buffing wizards.

Bards shouldn't be Arcane. Nor Sorcerer. Their magic is more art and controlled by emotional and genetic compatibility. That's why they are Cha based.

Warlock magic is a cheat. Warlocks should have their own spell list to display it's "fairness" and odd source.

 

[Aldarc]

Arcane is weird sciencey magic.

That's why it is strange to have Bard, Sorcerer, and Warlock use it. It stinks of traditionalists kludging things together in order to not support new ideas AND buffing wizards.

Bards shouldn't be Arcane. Nor Sorcerer. Their magic is more art and controlled by emotional and genetic compatibility. That's why they are Cha based.

Warlock magic is a cheat. Warlocks should have their own spell list to display it's "fairness" and odd source.

Again, I personally find it pretty strange that you are pretty much just imagining the same old classes (i.e., Wizard, Sorcerer, Bard, Warlock, etc.) because the point of my proposed setup is that it's not just retreading these classes, but, instead, it's building caster based on common playstyles, themes, and archetypes - much in the way that Magic the Gathering does with its color pie - while also killing an overly generic wizard that is trying to cover too much ground.

 

[Minigiant]

Again, I personally find it pretty strange that you are pretty much just imagining the same old classes (i.e., Wizard, Sorcerer, Bard, Warlock, etc.) because the point of my proposed setup is that it's not just retreading these classes, but, instead, it's building caster based on common playstyles, themes, and archetypes while also killing an overly generic wizard that is trying to cover too much ground.

Im actually not .

I added 5 other supplement casters and gave Warlock it's own spell list.

Warlock's Eldritch delves in to the dark powers of fiends and GOOs and the glamours of fey and genies.

Wizard's Arcane goes more generically into cold magic science.

Elementalist's Elemental gets the fire's, ices, and lightnings of raw, barely controlled powers

Psion's Psionics dives deeper into telekinetics, telepathy, and teleportation. All the Tele

Shadowcaster's Shadow blends the line of darkness and death to master illusion and necromancy.

Astrologer's Astral peers into the heavens for the power of the sky, the gods, and the cosmos.

Sorcerer exists as a being tapped into these magics innately without study of how they work.

Bard I admit I'd cut it or make a Music magic list.

 

[Aldarc]

Im actually not .

I added 5 other supplement casters and gave Warlock it's own spell list.

Warlock's Eldritch delves in to the dark powers of fiends and GOOs and the glamours of fey and genies.

Wizard's Arcane goes more generically into cold magic science.

Elementalist's Elemental gets the fire's, ices, and lightnings of raw, barely controlled powers

Psion's Psionics dives deeper into telekinetics, telepathy, and teleportation. All the Tele

Shadowcaster's Shadow blends the line of darkness and death to master illusion and necromancy.

Astrologer's Astral peers into the heavens for the power of the sky, the gods, and the cosmos.

Sorcerer exists as a being tapped into these magics innately without study of how they work.

Bard I admit I'd cut it or make a Music magic list.

Okay, but I still probably wouldn't use your schema. I think that what you do in 10-11 casters could be done in roughly 6 plus subclasses. Like I still don't see the reason what justifies the need for the Warlock or Sorcerer in this setup, and I still find your notion for Arcane as "cold magic science" to be incredibly vague.