D&D General The thread where I review a ton of Ravenloft modules

[Bedrockgames]

Calling out the issues and considering how to deal with them is fine. It’s constantly sounding surprised by them which seems kind of odd. You can’t really consider these modules without context.

This. To @Remathilis point, no one is saying you can't observe these things. But if you play 90s RPGs, you will notice them. It is the constant going to this without regard for how different the context was (and as I pointed out, failing to recognize that there were in fact many women writers in the Ravenloft line while doing so) that feels a bit odd at times

Also that is a different issue from style. Something about this conversation assumes D&D as played in 2024 by mainstream groups is the best way to do things ever. There is value in going back to old material and engaging it in good faith on its own terms. Not everything will be great (we have all commented on the railroading) but this is how the OSR emerged, going back to 1E and Basic and seeing what approaches were thrown out with the bathwater (and that led to a lot of valuable tools becoming popular again)

 

[Remathilis]

Calling out the issues and considering how to deal with them is fine. It’s constantly sounding surprised by them which seems kind of odd. You can’t really consider these modules without context.

I mean, is it?

I can go into the Complete Works of Lovecraft knowing his beliefs and STILL be shocked when I encounter his racist language and ideas. I think it's fair to call it out, even if you're well aware of the historical context of it.

 

[TiQuinn]

My point is there is actually value in going back to historical modules and running them on their own terms, not simply updating them for 5E or for a more current style of play. That is how I have approached them.

I think the historical context is interesting and informative, but there are obvious “we can do better” moments in a lot of those modules, even if we’re simply talking about cutting out the “obvious quest giver who suddenly dies” portion in favor of something more creative or something more involved like “Let’s not kill the entire party again just so that they can end up as brains in jars for a cheap thrill.” This is obviously to say nothing of the “Let’s avoid some of the racist and sexist stereotypes” that designers in that era didn’t care about - we’ve already got one rapey old darklord, do we need five more? What’s a better angle here?

They can also be updated of course. Most of the updating I would do though is in fairly simple things like reducing some of the railroading, fleshing out areas not well explained, and just expanding the material in general. Something like Feast of Goblyns, I would say can be run straight with little issue. But probably the best way to use Feast of Goblyns if you want to get the most out of it for your current campaign, is canabalize it for parts and use it as a setting supplement. Pretty much all of the locations are useable (I have taken most of them and plunked them into campaigns using completely different systems).

They are useable but I think der_kluge pointed out several ways that Feast of Goblyns can be improved by cutting out unnecessary scenes that just don’t work (even if they were intended for horror’s sake) or reworking them, I.E. do we need the jail scene?

One thing I will say, if you use the 90s models, you are much better off using the 2E system. I know a lot of peopel don't want to play with this one. But I have run the 90s material with later editions and with 2E. The difference is night and day. Those old modules are definitely intended to be run using TSR era rules (and it highly impacts the feel if you don't use them). Also this is so much less work than adapting them to newer editions

I don’t disagree but I think some of the issues are not edition specific. An improvement in some adventures are an improvement across all editions of the game. Others would be complicated by conversion because 2e rules just work differently. But I still enjoy that brainstorming.

 

[Bedrockgames]

The horror genre has changed a lot since the 90s.... there are a few too many women stuffed in fridges, and maybe that part with the steamboat isn't really needed.

I think a strong case can be made, that hyperawareness of these tropes and vigilantly avoiding them has made horror worse. Personally I think 70s, 80s and 90s horror is much better than the horror we have today, in large part because it isn't as obsessed with every little trope that could be a problem.

 

[Bedrockgames]

They are useable but I think der_kluge pointed out several ways that Feast of Goblyns can be improved by cutting out unnecessary scenes that just don’t work (even if they were intended for horror’s sake) or reworking them, I.E. do we need the jail scene?

Yes, you do need the jail scene. This is one of the most memorable and effective encounters in the line's history and essential to the atmosphere of the module (it is how the werewolf theme is conveyed)

 

[TiQuinn]

Yes, you do need the jail scene. This is one of the most memorable and effective encounters in the line's history and essential to the atmosphere of the module (it is how the werewolf theme is conveyed)

I disagree. I found the Kartakan Inn encounter to be much more iconic and works even better without having revealed the module’s core monster early.

 

[TiQuinn]

I think a strong case can be made, that hyperawareness of these tropes and vigilantly avoiding them has made horror worse. Personally I think 70s, 80s and 90s horror is much better than the horror we have today, in large part because it isn't as obsessed with every little trope that could be a problem.

But even in the 70s thru the 90s, there were instances that used the trope well (or originated it) and became the high point and then there were the hundreds of poor imitations. Halloween was one of the best slashers for a reason and remains effective, and at least, I could argue what comes after it is valuable only in its repetitive nature allows us to get to its deconstruction with Scream in the early 90s, which is probably the second best slasher movie.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I disagree. I found the Kartakan Inn encounter to be much more iconic and works even better without having revealed the module’s core monster early.

The Kartakan Inn is great. It is one of the best things about the module, but that is much more of an involved scene and it comes later. This is where you introduce players to the feel. And just having run it a bunch, i think it is one of the most effective encounters in the line (plus it is one I always hear players remembering). This is subjective of course though

 

[Stormonu]

One thing I will say, if you use the 90s models, you are much better off using the 2E system. I know a lot of peopel don't want to play with this one. But I have run the 90s material with later editions and with 2E. The difference is night and day. Those old modules are definitely intended to be run using TSR era rules (and it highly impacts the feel if you don't use them). Also this is so much less work than adapting them to newer editions

IMNSHO, the 2E rules are a poor fit for Ravenloft, and the adventure designers just couldn't get past that (which I think was a huge reason we ended up with Masque). But the lands of Ravenloft do hit a lot differently when the party is majority human (and, at best demi-humans of elves, dwarves, halflings, half-elves, gnomes and on the far outside half-orcs) instead of the wild variety of races available in 5E.

 

[Remathilis]

I think a strong case can be made, that hyperawareness of these tropes and vigilantly avoiding them has made horror worse. Personally I think 70s, 80s and 90s horror is much better than the horror we have today, in large part because it isn't as obsessed with every little trope that could be a problem.

I don't think you can objectively argue it's worse because of that. Horror has a lot of cliches that it doesn't need (the black guy dies first, the busty bimbo dies naked, etc) and horror isn't worse for losing those. I say that as someone who loves black and white vintage horror and someone who loves the Scream movies willingness to mock horror tropes.