Why is the Gish so popular with players?

[Dannyalcatraz]

Sure but those are the groups.

The ones that are more Warrior
The ones that are more Magey
The ones that do Magic and Fighting at the same time.

Maybe a 4th that is is a Warrior who has always on passive magic. Like a warrior with Wings and Infravision.

To me, those actually read as broader & more inclusive than your original categories.

 

[dbm]

I think the point is that there is a group which has magic+martial as options but they are the same magic that a pure magic-user has and the martial that a pure martial has, versus a class that integrates magic and martial in a way different to what can be done by purists. The 4e Swordmage is probably the best example of this I can think of in D&D’s back catalogue. That is more an artefact of how magic tends to be presented in D&D in my opinion, however. Contrast all the hybrid classes in Rolemaster which had their own base spell lists which made them distinct versus pure spell casters.

 

[Minigiant]

Groups are arbitrary and the question is how helpful they are. As I say I see your "Fighter/mage" and "Mage/fighter" to be part of the same design ethos and general approach to play, so you label them within the same box rather than having one entire category pretty much for the Eldritch Knight on its own.

I stated them this way because those would be the things a person gets from dabbling in Fighting or Arcane Magic in D&D and D&D clones.

A warrior doesn't learn wizard spells for healing, Resurrection, and pure numerical stat buffs. Arcane/Wizard magic gives you AOE damage and reality warping.

A FIGHTING/arcane Character does it for AOE and reality warping (mostly).

Spoiler: Mostly

because when they going to Arcane/Wizard Magic for something else that typically how the game unbalances itself.

And the ARCANE/fighting picks up fighting For what fighting gives.

Again typically when you get something outside of the norm for these aspects of the game from dabbling these aspects of the game there is a quick rush into the quote unquote OP area. So that part of Should not be part of the discussion.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I stated them this way because those would be the things a person gets from dabbling in Fighting or Arcane Magic in D&D and D&D clones.

And that's why I'm putting them in one category. They are basic focus + dabbling approaches that don't really change much other than having a plan B.

Again typically when you get something outside of the norm for these aspects of the game from dabbling these aspects of the game there is a quick rush into the quote unquote OP area. So that part of Should not be part of the discussion.

The OP area is generally "mid-high level casting" in general.

 

[Bayushi_seikuro]

I don't play a lot of gish, but in games of many genre, I tend to play support characters. For me, I want to have a character who's not the best at Everything, but I want to be versatile. I wouldn't be a fighter/mage because of some Sick Build, but usually because there's some story behind it - like when I realized in 5e you can cast spells in any armor you're proficient in, so I was like... a mountain dwarf wizard - awesome.

I think I am what Robin D Laws called 'the pro from Dover' when it came to player archetypes - the guy who has a full bag of tricks. Not because I want to spotlight hog, but because you need versatility, and if the rest of the table is building worrying about DPS etc, a lot of stuff like non combat utility gets overlooked.

 

[Minigiant]

And that's why I'm putting them in one category. They are basic focus + dabbling approaches that don't really change much other than having a plan B.

The OP area is generally "mid-high level casting" in general.

But what is dabbled and what is focused matter.

When the Focus and the Dabble don't matter, the game likely hasn't defined them and has a very high chance of OPness, brokeness, and lack of flavor.

Gishes are popular because of the choice. If the choice is irrelevant then it's a good chance the person just wants to power game.

 

[TwoSix]

I’ve played 17 Gish in a row.

 

[Undrave]

But what is dabbled and what is focused matter.

When the Focus and the Dabble don't matter, the game likely hasn't defined them and has a very high chance of OPness, brokeness, and lack of flavor.

Gishes are popular because of the choice. If the choice is irrelevant then it's a good chance the person just wants to power game.

It matters to the player but I don't think it matters to this discussion. It's all abstract at this point.

We have two type of Gish:
1- The guy who can chose between method A or method B, usually on a turn based basis
2- The guy who combines A and B into a new C with most actions.

What each of these letters are is just details.

I think DnD has always been pretty decent at doing 1, but rarely great at doing 2.

 

[Thomas Shey]

It matters to the player but I don't think it matters to this discussion. It's all abstract at this point.

We have two type of Gish:
1- The guy who can chose between method A or method B, usually on a turn based basis
2- The guy who combines A and B into a new C with most actions.

What each of these letters are is just details.

I think DnD has always been pretty decent at doing 1, but rarely great at doing 2.

You're usually better off with systems that don't draw strong lines of demarcation around mages in the first place, because they're most likely to have some magic that interacts with things like melee combat as a default. Most of the spirit/battle magic in RuneQuest is already about things any fighter can benefit from anyway, for example.

 

[Minigiant]

It matters to the player but I don't think it matters to this discussion. It's all abstract at this point.

We have two type of Gish:
1- The guy who can chose between method A or method B, usually on a turn based basis
2- The guy who combines A and B into a new C with most actions.

What each of these letters are is just details.

I think DnD has always been pretty decent at doing 1, but rarely great at doing 2.

I think it does matter as I believe the people who want FIGHTING/magic and those who want MAGIC/fighting aren't the same.

Although most of them want MAGIC/FIGHTING hasn't proved to work fairly in 90% of RPGs (with a split magic system).