The Ultimate Ravenloft Thread

[Echohawk]

I enjoyed that book so much, I brought my copy with me to Gen Con for several years in hopes of getting James Lowder's autograph (which I eventually did).

Mr Lowder is a true gentleman. Some years ago, while I was trying to fill some gaps in my collection of annoyingly-tricky-to-find 1993 TSR Collector's Cards, I ended up purchasing some cards from Mr Lowder including a card with the image of Lord Soth from Knight of the Black Rose (which I loved). He was kind enough to sign that card for me, making it one of my most treasured collectables.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

The vampire on the cover of Van Richten's Guide to Vampires, with the veiny bat wings that form its "cloak" -- chef's kiss. So good.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Really glad you posted this thread. I've been reading @der_kluge review thread and didn't want to wade in and muddy the waters because it's such a cool thread. But wow, do I disagree with like 90% of the reviews there hahaha. So funny how opinions can be so far apart

For what it is worth I have found Ravenloft fans, maybe because there have been different ideas about how it should be run over the years, even in the same lines, often stridently disagree with one another lol

We loved Feast of Goblyns. Jut adored it. Same for From the Shadows/Roots of Evil. Much of what seems to put people off the setting (the heavy-handedness, the stamping on PCs to make a point, the railroadyness etc) my groups love. Sometimes you want agency and narrative freedom and sometimes you want to be immersed in a directed narrative that delivers the goods. We use Ravenloft for the latter and it works every time.

I loved Feast of Goblyns. I think From the Shadows is a blast (roots of evil I had a little more trouble running if I recall but I only ran that one once). I do think the critique of the opening railroad is valid, at the same time, if you lean into it, I can't deny every time I ran that it was a solid evening of entertainment. Having gone back and run a lot of this material again on its own terms I tend to agree with you, if you go in trying impose your current style on the stuff, it can feel like pushing a boulder uphill, if you can put your ego aside and try to engage it on its own terms, you realize there is fun to be had with a more strongly directed narrative (you do lose that freedom and agency a bit but you gain a lot in terms of mood, suspense and flavor). You expressed a thought here very well that I was clumsily trying to express in the other thread

Except for House on Gryphon Hill. Every time I run that, it sucks. Which I don't get because it looks like it should work. But I can't get it to run properly. Maybe that's on me. Shame.

This book pisses me off because I have never been able to find a copy and I have been searching for on since 1991! I loved Mordent so I just wanted it mainly as background info to see what I could take from it. I also wanted to see what Azalin's first appearance was like

But the others we've played (and yeah, I6 is still king because of course it is) all play waaaay better than they read. Touch of Death was excellent - have players who still talk about that - and Night of the Walking Dead was very cool as well. But yeah, we had people cheering when that horseman turned up in From the Shadows and started cutting heads and the players realised what was going on haha. They were like "Wait, is this Ravenloft?! Hell yeah!!!"

I think this is often true too. Playing them definitely is a different experience than the read. Also some of them benefit from a little editing for clarity (I think one very valid criticism of many of these modules, probably because they produced such high volume back then, is there are quirky errors or missing details sometimes: it is sometimes helpful, if you see something odd, to ask if this slipped through the editing and playtest phase somehow and revise it to make it fit: as an example a crucial detail that is heavily implied but never really clarified)

 

[Mark Hope]

For what it is worth I have found Ravenloft fans, maybe because there have been different ideas about how it should be run over the years, even in the same lines, often stridently disagree with one another lol

Totally. And this is as it should be. How dull it would be if we all thought the same thing

I loved Feast of Goblyns. I think From the Shadows is a blast (roots of evil I had a little more trouble running if I recall but I only ran that one once). I do think the critique of the opening railroad is valid, at the same time, if you lean into it, I can't deny every time I ran that it was a solid evening of entertainment. Having gone back and run a lot of this material again on its own terms I tend to agree with you, if you go in trying impose your current style on the stuff, it can feel like pushing a boulder uphill, if you can put your ego aside and try to engage it on its own terms, you realize there is fun to be had with a more strongly directed narrative (you do lose that freedom and agency a bit but you gain a lot in terms of mood, suspense and flavor). You expressed a thought here very well that I was clumsily trying to express in the other thread

I think there's a lot to be said for leaning into the concept of a Ravenloft game, and that includes not only the gothic trappings and genre assumptions but also the more structured nature of the narrative. I think it's complicated as well by the fact that the concept of "railroad" is so unpopular and is almost exclusively derogatory - but there's no reason a structured narrative can't produce an incredibly satisfying gaming experience. As you say, something that is blatantly a railroad nevertheless results in a solid evening of entertainment. You have to know what your players will lean into, I think, and what works for one group won't work for another. Again, as it should be.

This book pisses me off because I have never been able to find a copy and I have been searching for on since 1991! I loved Mordent so I just wanted it mainly as background info to see what I could take from it. I also wanted to see what Azalin's first appearance was like

Azalin has been one of the highlights of that adventure when I have run it. Stumbling across an unexpected lich always grabs the attention, I feel. There are so many other moving parts, though, that it's a real challenge to run and the players have to really want to run with the narrative. I first encountered it as a player and found it deeply alarming. Never managed to get it to sing as DM, though.

Also, there are several copies on ebay right now, some unpunched, for what seems like reasonable money for a product of that vintage. And some of the DMs Guild reprints too, but they're not as cool.

I think this is often true too. Playing them definitely is a different experience than the read. Also some of them benefit from a little editing for clarity (I think one very valid criticism of many of these modules, probably because they produced such high volume back then, is there are quirky errors or missing details sometimes: it is sometimes helpful, if you see something odd, to ask if this slipped through the editing and playtest phase somehow and revise it to make it fit: as an example a crucial detail that is heavily implied but never really clarified)

The editing thing is a really valid point. And especially if you're running something that's more structured, you need all the pieces to be correctly labelled. There's some of this in Gryphon Hill, actually, where some of the maps are missing compass directions and you have to hunt through the text to find where north is

 

[Micah Sweet]

The thing that got me into it was the novel Knight of the Black Rose (which came out almost a year after the black box I think). I had heard of Ravenloft before that, and I grew up loving classic horror, but for some reason I was put off from it that first year (to that point I was more of a Forgotten Realms and Dragonlance Fan). But Knight of the Black Rose was my bridge because I liked Lord Soth and the cover intrigued me (and I had just finished reading the second Dragonlance Trilogy). I don't know what it was but something about going on this journey with Soth, who I didn't imagine should get pushed around by a vampire, really sparked my interest. I read the book in a couple of days and rushed out to get the black box and feast of Goblyns, then picked up I6 and started getting every book they put out for Ravenloft as they came out. I was pretty hooked.

I think I started out running one shots using scenarios like Bride of Mordenheim here, or bit son Feast of Goblyns there to get my feet wet before running a campaign and incorporating the Hyskosa Hexad into it. From then on I was pretty much a full time Ravenloft GM from the beginning of the 90s to the end (though I would run other things on occasion)

I would argue that Soth wasn't pushed around by Strahd. He was definitely manipulated, but that situation was par for the course for both characters.

Knight of the Black Rose is absolutely my favorite Ravenloft novel.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I would argue that Soth wasn't pushed around by Strahd. He was definitely manipulated, but that situation was par for the course for both characters.

Knight of the Black Rose is absolutely my favorite Ravenloft novel.

I was thinking of early in the novel where Soth seemed to think he could steam roll over Strahd and was frustrated that he couldn't, that he had to work with Strahd

 

[Alzrius]

I was thinking of early in the novel where Soth seemed to think he could steam roll over Strahd and was frustrated that he couldn't, that he had to work with Strahd

As I recall, he was shocked by how he couldn't steamroll Strahd, at which point Strahd just assumed that Soth would fall in line and went to go rest since the sun was rising. Soth responds to that insult by going on a rampage through Castle Ravenloft and slaughtering a number of Strahd's servants before leaving.

He later agrees to work with Strahd after a subsequent escape attempt fails, and Strahd directs him to another possible avenue of escape in Castle Hunadora, Duke Gundar's home. When that one falls through, Soth marches on Castle Ravenloft in a fury, intent on slaying Strahd, who holds him off with wave after wave of men a sacrificial army of conjured undead supplemented by mercenaries, before using Caradoc to send Soth into the mists, knowing that the death knight will throw everything away to punish a treacherous servant.

 

[Bedrockgames]

As I recall, he was shocked by how he couldn't steamroll Strahd, at which point Strahd just assumed that Soth would fall in line and went to go rest since the sun was rising. Soth responds to that insult by going on a rampage through Castle Ravenloft and slaughtering a number of Strahd's servants before leaving.

He later agrees to work with Strahd after a subsequent escape attempt fails, and Strahd directs him to another possible avenue of escape in Castle Hunadora, Duke Gundar's home. When that one falls through, Soth marches on Castle Ravenloft in a fury, intent on slaying Strahd, who holds him off with wave after wave of men a sacrificial army of conjured undead supplemented by mercenaries, before using Caradoc to send Soth into the mists, knowing that the death knight will throw everything away to punish a treacherous servant.

It has been a long time since I read the book. But again, it is the fact that he was obstructed by Strahd and not in control of things the way he would be in Krynn that I remember capturing my interest in the setting. I don't recall all the details at the moment. It basically gave me an intense desire to know more about the setting because I knew nothing about it before reading the book

 

[Bedrockgames]

I would argue that Soth wasn't pushed around by Strahd. He was definitely manipulated, but that situation was par for the course for both characters.

Knight of the Black Rose is absolutely my favorite Ravenloft novel.

That is probably more of an accurate description. It was just more the surprise of seeing how much of a challenge Ravenloft was, and also me not understanding as a reader how tied to the land Strahd was. Really made me curious about it. I remember devouring the black box after I read Knight of the Black Rose. It was the thing that turned me from wanting more bog standard fantasy as a gamer and seeing the potential in a more horror infused world.

I agree it is my favorite of the Ravenloft novel line

 

[Voadam]

Ravenloft is very multiaspect.

The Black box sets up gothic horror as a specific style of horror, not slasher gore, or cosmic horror, or over the top supernatural evil, but growing dread from uncertainty and twisting the normal and good to the wrong with well fleshed out revealed tragic stories. Lots of Ravenloft material goes in other directions.

There are intense themed dark lords with stories and personal curses and powers and connections to the land and intrigues against other lords, and then there is everybody else, monsters and villains and NPCs that can also be focused on. Dark lords can be the focus as either godlike untouchable drivers of plot, or ultimate boss villains to be overthrown, or background you never directly come across as you go ghost hunting.

Power levels are all over the place. Dark lords can be energy draining vampire lords more powerful than standard vampires, or a 4 hp evil manipulator guy who could be taken out by a thief not even backstabbing. Top tier villain lords could be overpowered by the customization options for monsters of the same type in the Van Richten guides.

Monsters can be rare and unique or fairly omnipresent. A Kolchak night stalker monster of the week theme works for a Ravenloft campaign and the monstrous compendiums give you cool options. Monsters can have interesting stories and thematic powers but also be all over the place in power or abilities with Jack the ripper madmen types being essentially fourth level thieves but there being Borcan courtesan spies with save at -4 poison touch abilities. Monsters can be customized in the Van Richten's guides to match their stories, but also to make them complete party killers by enhancing energy drain up to five levels a shot or aging to extra decades per power bump so that they are one shot killers in D&D combat. Weaknesses can be thematic or just fairly random and esoteric.

It is gothic horror with a focus on the normal and beautiful and good intruded upon by growing dread of the unnatural and it is oppressive and cruel evil. There is a mundane base, but also full D&D with magic and monster fighting heroes. It is a twist on D&D with many PC magic either having possible bad twists or not providing the normal divination knowledge certainties to work from.

The Van Richten's guides provide an investigative D&D monster hunting model that focuses on the stories of individual monsters to build up to climax fights against tragic foes the PCs know.

The setting books set up both weekends in hell and a full ongoing campaign.

The modules are all over the place with some being investigations or helping people, some being complete railroads, some being complete PC screw overs with slasher gore shock or heavy handed loss of PC agency and character concepts. Some are focused on the low key and tragic gothic set ups while others are D&D high magic excesses like multiple books of vile darkness being ground up to enhance and coercively turn evil a formerly canonically mundane army and D&D specific rules loopholes for power gaming like a vampire NPC specifically enraging a ghost to use their age attack to advance the vampire to elder categories for greater power bumps.

The setting can be nightmare illogical isolated domains with heavy mist separations and two adjacent lands having different moons or it can be a core with regular different domain interactions and the lords often actively scheming against each other with Birthright/Game of Thrones politics including many power players being hidden behind the throne.

It is a small geographic area and small populations, but lots of monsters and death.

It is a young setting created a few hundred years ago but also includes rules for monsters centuries older than the setting.

Ravenloft experiences can vary hugely as well as what aspects people enjoy or hate.