D&D (2024) D&D 2024 Rules Oddities (Kibbles’ Collected Complaints)

[ECMO3]

Wut? I've never seen a ranger, even in the game where we went up to level 20, NOT usually making weapon attacks. They are not more forced into a specific niche from this than they were in

Fey Wanderer makes for a great primary spell caster. I've played two Rangers to high level - Lena a 17th level Goblin Ranger16/Rogue1 who had an 8 strength and 16 Dex at games end and Chromescale a 20th level Ranger who had an 8 and 14 respectively.

With a Fey Wanderer subclass and Tasha's Primal ability you get a ton of castings, almost on par with a full caster. Add a bunch of spells through feats and you have a great recipe for a controller. Both of the characters above took Shadow Touched (Cause Fear), Fey Touched (Lena got Hex, Chromsescale got Dissonant Whispers), and Telepathic. Chromescale also took the Dragonfear feat.

At high level they very rarely used weapons. They were all about control with Spike Growth, Dissonant Whispers, upcast Cause Fear and spamming concentration-free Summon Mirthful Fey. Against enemies that could be frightened, these were the best two control builds I have ever played, and I've played Wizards to 20th level. The combination of Summonning multiple Mirthful Fey, Beguiling Twist and Cause Fear (or Dragonfear feat) is freaking awesome.

I don't think Chromescale ever made a weapon attack after 15th level. Lena did, but not often and usually in clean up mode. Once near games end, she did go to town TWF with daggers against an enemy caster in an anti-magic shell and decimated him.

Lena was actually good in melee. She had a belt of Giant Strength, a Dragon Tooth dagger, 1d6 sneak attack, 1d6 Dreadful Strikes, and 1d8 Favored Foe if she was not concentrating, with advantage almost on demand from Nature's Viel. So her melee damage was not bad if she wanted to go into melee. It is just it was a lot more fun, and usually more effective, for her to control enemies. Lena was the most fun character I ever played bar none. The DM I played with was asked at a party in 2022 who was his favorite PC of the 20+ he had seen in our group until that time, and he named Lena as his favorite too.

Getting rid of abilities that enable that and making the class more martial focused takes away this kind of creativity.

Part of this too is Hunters Mark is just such a crappy spell both in terms of flavor and mechanics. If they gave us Hex instead I would be much happier.

 

[Maxperson]

The spikes are meant to be hard to see, though. If you didn’t see them being conjured, you have to make a Perception check to see them afterwards.

A waist-high (or higher) briar patch would be a lot more noticeable than that!

I've known a lot of people who wouldn't see that sucker before they walked into it.

 

[ECMO3]

Ah.. Back to the old "it's not magic so you can't do it" argument.

Meanwhile it's perfectly reasonable to wave your hands and create zone of thorns in less than 6 seconds.

Looks like magic to me

 

[Clint_L]

edit: wrong thread

 

[ECMO3]

After careful consideration I have come to the determination that dragging a grappled creature while mounted on a horse is NOT supported in 5E RAW. Two parts of the PHB bring me to this conclusion.

First the description of moving a grappled creature:

"Moving a Grappled Creature. When you move, you can drag or carry the grappled creature with you, but your speed is halved, unless the creature is two or more sizes smaller than you."

It says nothing in there about something else moving you. You are not the one moving when your horse trots around the spikes, your horse is.

Second from the grappled condition:

"The condition also ends if an effect removes the grappled creature from the reach of the grappler or grappling effect, such as when a creature is hurled away by the thunderwave spell."

Based on this your horse moving (with you on it) actually breaks the grapple. It does not cause the creature to be dragged with you. You leave the creature behind as you are moved away and out of reach oof the creature you are grappling .... just like if your horse cast Thunderwave on you to get you off his back.

As a result whether or not it makes sense IRL, or RAI. 5E RAW your horse can not be used to move a creature you grappled.

A Horse that is not a controlled mount can attempt to grapple an enemy himself and drag said enemy through the spikes (at half speed). Presumably you would need some sort of mind control or way to communicate to get him to do this (like a Paladin's steed).

 

[pukunui]

I've known a lot of people who wouldn't see that sucker before they walked into it.

Well, I mean, there are people who walk into doors and stuff so ...

 

[tetrasodium]

After careful consideration I have come to the determination that dragging a grappled creature while mounted on a horse is NOT supported in 5E RAW. Two parts of the PHB bring me to this conclusion.

First the description of moving a grappled creature:

"Moving a Grappled Creature. When you move, you can drag or carry the grappled creature with you, but your speed is halved, unless the creature is two or more sizes smaller than you."

It says nothing in there about something else moving you. You are not the one moving when your horse trots around the spikes, your horse is.

Second from the grappled condition:

"The condition also ends if an effect removes the grappled creature from the reach of the grappler or grappling effect, such as when a creature is hurled away by the thunderwave spell."

Based on this your horse moving (with you on it) actually breaks the grapple. It does not cause the creature to be dragged with you. You leave the creature behind as you are moved away and out of reach oof the creature you are grappling .... just like if your horse cast Thunderwave on you to get you off his back.

As a result whether or not it makes sense IRL, or RAI. 5E RAW your horse can not be used to move a creature you grappled.

A Horse that is not a controlled mount can attempt to grapple an enemy himself and drag said enemy through the spikes (at half speed). Presumably you would need some sort of mind control or way to communicate to get him to do this (like a Paladin's steed).

Discarding 5e's natural language, that's an anal hair splitting ruling even by by 3.5 rules lawyering standards because you still have stuff like the monk and who knows what else sitting deep into the same "intentionally overtuned"end of the scale that you are cutting off.

 

[Marcus Lindberg]

I'd flat-out say you can't drag or carry someone through a space without also going through that space yourself, the exception in this case being if you're flying a few feet off the ground and dragging the victim like an anchor.

Even flying would not be an auto success, as an active grappled victim would struggle to avoid the spikes, alternate in height, maybe even to the extreme point of climbing "on top" of the flyer depending on context.

 

[ECMO3]

Discarding 5e's natural language, that's an anal hair splitting ruling even by by 3.5 rules lawyering standards because you still have stuff like the monk and who knows what else sitting deep into the same "intentionally overtuned"end of the scale that you are cutting off.

RAW is RAW.

Our debate centers around how over the top and game-breaking it is to allow a horse to drag a creature grappled by the rider through spike growth, well DMs that are allowing that are braking the rules to allow it. Full stop.

At the end of the day: If it is a problem at your table you have a clear path to turn it off - the rules say you can't do it. If it is not a problem at your table, or you like it, then go with a homebrew that allows your players to do this.

The Monk in 2024 is a different discussion ... but one that was earlier framed rather defensively by to parahrase - a mounted rider can do it in 5E so it is no big deal .... well the latter is not practical for a myriad of reasons and not technically allowed in 5E for the two reasons above.

 

[tetrasodium]

RAW is RAW.

Yes it is. After a point however the level of linguistic sophistry needed to split hairs fine enough ultimately detracts credibility from the ruling.

Our debate centers around how over the top and game-breaking it is to allow a horse to drag a creature grappled by the rider through spike growth, well DMs that are allowing that are braking the rules to allow it. Full stop.

Yes and no. Doing it while mounted is only one of the many obvious ways that cheese grater tactic are completely broken in the 2024 ruleset. If your hair splitting cleared all (or even most) of the problem it could be excused with the old adage about the perfect being the enemy of the good... But it fails to even be make a meaningful dent at to be quite honest really only impacts one of the less optimal flavor of cheese grater tactics