Yeah, I think people who look at the Dance bard as a melee style because of that damage are missing the mark on how it plays.Don't use the unarmed attack against an enemy.
Use it to grab an ally and waltz them out the door. Or move your Putrid undead around.
And no one else has a better use of their inspiration than + to initiative.
D&D (2024) Dancing bards and true strike.
- Thread starter Valetudo
- Start date
UngeheuerLich
Legend
Yes. All those people claiming the dance bard is a better monk were very much off base.
The dance bard gets good AC without going through hoops.
And evasiveness and some extra damage.
Actually all bard subclass get some of that.
Lore gets cutting words
Valor gets armor
Glamor gets mirror image
I would also say, probably dance is the worst of those subclasses. But they also have a very strong ability in their initative boost. And evasion on level 14 actually does matter a lot.
Lore's extra magic secrets has turned into a ribbon by then...
Just a reminder: bards are full casters.
From level 10 onwards, their spell list is the best of all lists.
Fun fact: cleric subclasses went from 5 benefits to 3.
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I'm thinking more like Dagger using a combination of her grace, speed, and agility as a dancer combined with her supernatural abilities.
Radiant powers of light, healing, and hope on a character who applies dancing to her combat moves seems pretty accurate to use as an inspiration.
mellored
Legend
I see Lore as the worst.
Since you have Jack of All Trades, the bonus skill proficiencies does is only worth +1 at low levels. Much rather have the extra AC.
Cutting words directly compete with giving out inspiration. Compared to Agile Strike that lets an ally turn a miss into hit AND you also attack.
Magical Discovery is decent, but only for a few levels. Then everyone gets it.
Peerless Skill is yet another way to spend from the same pool.
Since you have Jack of All Trades, the bonus skill proficiencies does is only worth +1 at low levels. Much rather have the extra AC.
Cutting words directly compete with giving out inspiration. Compared to Agile Strike that lets an ally turn a miss into hit AND you also attack.
Magical Discovery is decent, but only for a few levels. Then everyone gets it.
Peerless Skill is yet another way to spend from the same pool.
kigmatzomat
Legend
Two levels later at 5th it is 3 skills with +2 over JoaT. That's not nothing. It's much easier to get a point of AC...but Lore bards should know enough to avoid getting hit most of the time.
Lore bards are amazing hecklers and can literally heckle people to death. Cutting words applies to foes' ability checks, like strength checks to escape spells like Entangle, grapple checks, social checks, perform, and important things swimming and climbing.
Even after level 10, Magical Discoveries is still 2 more known spells than any other bard. That is a non-trivial increase in capabilities and far from a ribbon.
And I'm not sure if it's intended, but it looks like one Discovery spell can be swapped every level in addition to the normal replaced spell.
It is often used in non-combat situations. Social encounters, like keeping the barbarian out of jail. Or knowledges, like when the party really needs to know about the monsters of Freinleiven. Or Perform checks to earn coin or reputation.
But also life and death things like swimming,climbing, as well as escaping Entangle spells and Grapples.
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mellored
Legend
Cutting words uses your inspiration and reaction.
Valor is about the same AC, depending if your using a shield.
Mirror images uses spell slots. It's just an extra known spell.
IMO, assuming straight class.
Glamor is top. Letting your cast 2 "spells" a turn. Note that Beguiling Magic works with Viscous Mockery, and if you can get it, Mind Sliver.
Dance is second. Defense, a little extra damage, extra party movement, and a great party buff.
Valor is third. Defense, and a little extra damage.
Keep in mind, your going to be using your action to cast spells often, not attack every turn.
Lore just doesn't get much.
mellored
Legend
Most of the time, cutting words an enemies Deception checks is the same as boosting an ally's Insight check.
Sure there will be some use cases, but not often.
I don't see many situations where a creature is climbing without a climb speed.
Fair point about grapple though.
Glamor also knows 2 extra spells.
Not swappable though.
You have been able to give inspiration to the Barbarian so he can stay out of jail or to the wizard for knowledge checks since level 1.
You're going from 4 people who can use it to 5 people. Pretty weak for a 14th level feature IMO.
It could of been added to level 6, and has a completely new feature at 14. Like being able to swap your Magical Discovery spells on a long rest.
Dance gets advantage on performance checks at level 3, no die needed.
UngeheuerLich
Legend
Yes. Still a defensive boost.
Why shouldn't you use a shield?
The ease of use is key here. And the additional effect. For other bards it is a turn solely wasted on defense.
Of course straight class.
Think so too.
I'd agree.
Of course.
I disagree.
Cutting word is a strong ability. At level 5 it is more or less a shield you can use on your allies too. A bit less reliable though.
Extra magic secrets grows to become a minor ability, when you get it, it is very strong though, as you can grab 2 powerful spells 4 levels earlier than any other bard.
Overall I think all bard subclasses are viable.
I like all of the bard subclasses in the 2024 PHB.
Dance bards are going to eat through uses of Bardic Inspiration using Tandem Footwork but it's a strong ability and easy to apply. I like Inspiring Movement because it's a very tactical ability.
Lore bards seem to get a lot of being a bard more. More skills, more spells, more bonuses. The bonus skills are minor but it's still being better at 3 more skills, and Cutting Words is useful. Magical Discoveries is a bit weird because it can't actually be used for bard spells like Magical Secrets can, and it does get practically replaced by Magical Secrets later, but it's good at it's levels and it's always going to be more spells prepped which has it's uses. I like the changes to Peerless Skill because it applies to any skill check or attack roll, is an option triggered by a failure, and doesn't use the BI use if it still fails. Lore is hard on BI uses but so are Dance and Glamour bards.
Valor bards are still the classic bard in my mind. They have combat training, skill benefits, and strong magical abilities. Their BI dice are awarded to other PC's and are going to get used in typical ways. The AC is decent, they can be built for weapon combat, and they now mix magic and martial attacks better. They're a bard that's good at being a bard.
Glamour bard changes seem to hit all the right spots to streamline the college a bit. They gain 2 spells before Lore bards even if they don't get to choose them, and a 3rd when Lore bards gain their 2, and the spells align with the other Glamour bard abilities. All 3 of those spells are useful. Beguiling Magic let's the bard charm or frighten a target in addition to the spell cast and can be recharged with BI dice. Mantle of Inspiration grant thp but the real benefit is granting off-turn movement to many PC's at once. Mantle of Majesty allows for using Command as a bonus action without a spell slot and is worth the 3rd level spell slot to recharge. Unbreakable Majesty can stop a lot of attacks.
Glamour is focuses on enchantments and illusions, which is a bit of a pigeon-hole, but it meshes the college abilities with those spells rather well, IMO. I find spending BI uses to recharge Beguiling Magic and on Mantle of Inspiration to eat BI dice but those are worth it.
I still think the loss of Song of Rest, changes to Jack of all Trades, and slower high level spells known progression are overall a nerf to the class but it sure seems a lot more streamlined than it was in the base class and subclasses.
They all seem good to me for the purposes for which I would use them.
Dance bards are going to eat through uses of Bardic Inspiration using Tandem Footwork but it's a strong ability and easy to apply. I like Inspiring Movement because it's a very tactical ability.
Lore bards seem to get a lot of being a bard more. More skills, more spells, more bonuses. The bonus skills are minor but it's still being better at 3 more skills, and Cutting Words is useful. Magical Discoveries is a bit weird because it can't actually be used for bard spells like Magical Secrets can, and it does get practically replaced by Magical Secrets later, but it's good at it's levels and it's always going to be more spells prepped which has it's uses. I like the changes to Peerless Skill because it applies to any skill check or attack roll, is an option triggered by a failure, and doesn't use the BI use if it still fails. Lore is hard on BI uses but so are Dance and Glamour bards.
Valor bards are still the classic bard in my mind. They have combat training, skill benefits, and strong magical abilities. Their BI dice are awarded to other PC's and are going to get used in typical ways. The AC is decent, they can be built for weapon combat, and they now mix magic and martial attacks better. They're a bard that's good at being a bard.
Glamour bard changes seem to hit all the right spots to streamline the college a bit. They gain 2 spells before Lore bards even if they don't get to choose them, and a 3rd when Lore bards gain their 2, and the spells align with the other Glamour bard abilities. All 3 of those spells are useful. Beguiling Magic let's the bard charm or frighten a target in addition to the spell cast and can be recharged with BI dice. Mantle of Inspiration grant thp but the real benefit is granting off-turn movement to many PC's at once. Mantle of Majesty allows for using Command as a bonus action without a spell slot and is worth the 3rd level spell slot to recharge. Unbreakable Majesty can stop a lot of attacks.
Glamour is focuses on enchantments and illusions, which is a bit of a pigeon-hole, but it meshes the college abilities with those spells rather well, IMO. I find spending BI uses to recharge Beguiling Magic and on Mantle of Inspiration to eat BI dice but those are worth it.
I still think the loss of Song of Rest, changes to Jack of all Trades, and slower high level spells known progression are overall a nerf to the class but it sure seems a lot more streamlined than it was in the base class and subclasses.
They all seem good to me for the purposes for which I would use them.
It doesn't have to. In an opposed check a BI die can be given out to a PC while the Lore bard can also use Cuttiing Words. That's 2 BI dice but it's also essentially double the effect if it's needed.
Bardic Inspiration doesn't prevent direct damage and only BI from a Valor bard can increase AC. Cutting Words from an attack roll has similar effect that Dance and Glamour do not, and reducing damage might not usually be the best use of Cutting Words saving 5 people from 5 points of Fireball damage is 25 hp total for a single BI use.
Cutting Words is useful. It's running out of BI uses that becomes the issue.
Beguiling Magic states "immediately after you cast an Enchantment or Illusion spell using a spell slot". Cantrips don't use a spell slot. ;-)
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