D&D General Attacks and Speed added to the Class Tables

[Minigiant]

So I was just browsing as the Monk class table and I looked at the Unarmored Movement bonus. Then I began to ponder. Then I went back to other classes. And other editions. And many classes get speed bonuses or movement abilities at certain levels. And additional attacks.

I asked my friends "If many classes get faster and more attacks as the level, why arent number of attacks and speed improvements just normalized as an aspect of leveling and added to the chart?"

Before they could pull my glass away, I managed to engage with them in conversation about the nature of the D&D and similar class based games. About fighters and monks and such?

One friend claimed simplicity but the other said it would be right there on the chart "Attacks 2. Speed +10ft."

Then Mr "Dash as a Bonus Action" claimed realism. And we laughed.

So what if speed and number of attacks was assumed to increase with level like attack rolls, skill bonus, and health are?

Would you prefer a D&D where it is assumed as normal that some classes gain speed and additional attacks as they leveled instead of class features or spells that do the same or offer different expressions of it (Moving as a bonus/minor/free action, extra damage instead of extra attacks)?

 

[Milieu]

So what if speed and number of attacks was assumed to increase with level like attack rolls, skill bonus, and health are?

In 3e, number of attacks was like this, and I think there are good reasons for reverting that.

Would you prefer a D&D where it is assumed as normal that some classes gain speed and additional attacks as they leveled instead of class features or spells that do the same or offer different expressions of it

I think there's something to be said for simplifying those things, like having flat speed increases instead of having a bunch of slightly different bespoke free movement class abilities, but for some people that IS the game. In 3e, people would complain about "dead levels"; as in, levels where the only thing that changes is some numbers going up, and you don't get a shiny new feature. Likewise, in combat, activating your special ability that gives you free extra movement feels more like you're doing something cool, even if a flat speed increase would have been just as effective.

But the flip side of this is if everyone has a bunch of different complicated special abilities, combat slows down. If every round of combat takes half an hour, you really want a lot of options to do cool things, because if you just swing your sword and miss, you feel bad, like you've wasted a bunch of time. Plus, it gives you more tactical options to think about while you're waiting for your next turn. If rounds take 5 minutes, it doesn't matter as much if you don't get to a cool thing every time.

So, yeah, if you simplify enough class features, spells, feats, and so on that combat tends to go a lot more quickly, I might prefer it (especially if I'm the DM). But I think it's a hard sell for a lot of current D&D players.

But even I, someone who thinks the complaints about "dead levels" were too exaggerated and would generally prefer a simpler version if done well, have to admit that I'd much rather find a +1 flametongue that glows blue in proximity to moles (both literal and figurative) than a "boring" +4 long sword. So why shouldn't that argument apply to character levels too? A +2 sword is boring but a +1 paladin level is fine? I don't know.

(Moving as a bonus/minor/free action, extra damage instead of extra attacks)?

In general extra damage is better for keeping combat fast than extra attacks, so my answers for these examples may differ.

 

[CreamCloud0]

Oh definitely, I wouldn’t say instead of class features but i have definitely advocated for more of these kinds of passive bonuses and increased action economy(you can do X as BA rather than a full one, ect) mostly as improvements on the martials.

 

[Horwath]

fighters should gain extra attack every 4 levels(4,8,12,16,20),
barbarians/monks every 5 levels(5,10,15,20),
half casters every 6 levels(but with added cantrips and ability to trade one attack for casting a cantrip/6,12,18),
rogues/warlocks every 8 levels(8,16),
full casters every 12 levels(12).

 

[Minigiant]

In 3e, number of attacks was like this, and I think there are good reasons for reverting that.

I think that is more due to 3e making multiple attacks having different modifiers.

I think there's something to be said for simplifying those things, like having flat speed increases instead of having a bunch of slightly different bespoke free movement class abilities, but for some people that IS the game. In 3e, people would complain about "dead levels"; as in, levels where the only thing that changes is some numbers going up, and you don't get a shiny new feature. Likewise, in combat, activating your special ability that gives you free extra movement feels more like you're doing something cool, even if a flat speed increase would have been just as effective.

Well the Extra Attacks and Increase Speed could fill the dead levels.

But the flip side of this is if everyone has a bunch of different complicated special abilities, combat slows down. If every round of combat takes half an hour, you really want a lot of options to do cool things, because if you just swing your sword and miss, you feel bad, like you've wasted a bunch of time. Plus, it gives you more tactical options to think about while you're waiting for your next turn. If rounds take 5 minutes, it doesn't matter as much if you don't get to a cool thing every time.

So, yeah, if you simplify enough class features, spells, feats, and so on that combat tends to go a lot more quickly, I might prefer it (especially if I'm the DM). But I think it's a hard sell for a lot of current D&D players.

Well let's imagine this class. I'd call it the Runist (using 5e class rules)

Level	Proficiency	Attacks	Movement Bonus	Class Features	Runes Known
1	+2	1	-	Rune Etch (Weapon)	2
2	+2	1	+10ft	Rune Etch (Armor)	2
3	+2	1	+10ft	Runist Subclass	3
4	+2	1	+10ft	Ability Score Improvement	3
5	+3	2	+10ft		4
6	+3	2	+15ft	Subclass Feature	4
7	+3	2	+15ft	Rune Etch (Helm)	5
8	+3	2	+15ft	Ability Score Improvement	5
9	+4	2	+15ft		6
10	+4	2	+15ft	Subclass Feature	6
11	+4	3	+20ft		7
12	+4	3	+20ft	Ability Score Improvement	7

Do you think fans would accept this simpler presentation with additional attacks or increased speed (with extra runes) filling in "dead levels"?

 

[Sorcerers Apprentice]

I think this would be a waste of space for numbers that rarely change for most classes.

 

[CreamCloud0]

I think this would be a waste of space for numbers that rarely change for most classes.

I feel like there’s an associated assumption with the thread premise that these are things that should change for more than a few classes, rereading it it even sounds like ‘these changes used to be a thing in previous editions, let’s reimplement it’

And I know base speed is based on species but it bothered me that classes like wizard and warlock, even druid, sorcerers and some bards get the same base 30 speed equals to physically conditioned fighters, rogues, barbs and rangers, just as much as I believe a fighter should have ~40ft speed I think the wizards should have 20ft.

 

[Minigiant]

I think this would be a waste of space for numbers that rarely change for most classes.

For casters sure.
But noncasters and half casters not so much.

I feel like there’s an associated assumption with the thread premise that these are things that should change for more than a few classes, rereading it it even sounds like ‘these changes used to be a thing in previous editions, let’s reimplement it’

And I know base speed is based on species but it bothered me that classes like wizard and warlock, even druid, sorcerers and some bards get the same base 30 speed equals to physically conditioned fighters, rogues, barbs and rangers, just as much as I believe a fighter should have ~40ft speed I think the wizards should have 20ft.

Sorta.

Like the 2024 Ranger gets Roving at level 6 and the Barbarian Fast movement at level 5.
Why don't Rangers, Rogues, and Barbarians just get +5ft speed at level 3, +10ft speed at level 6, +15ft speed at level X +20ft speed at level Y etc and have speed increases be a base increase for class level for fast noncasters with the assumption that fantasy warriors are just so much faster.

You can even not have it stack for multiclassing to encourage single class PC.

 

[Vaalingrade]

I'd love to see rogues at least also get speed bonuses.

 

[Quickleaf]

Shouldn't lower level characters be quicker to run away?