D&D General Dark Sun as a Hopepunk Setting

[I'm A Banana]

It's solid. I'd definitely play it.

There's one big consideration I'd have as WotC, though.

How prepared are we for accusations of exploiting suffering for gain?

There's this trope where fiction shows people suffering the kinds of violence that minority communities suffer - things like SA or slavery - and have the heroes fight it. Fiction like this is often fairly accused of exploiting that suffering, using fictionalized versions of this violence in ways that fail to respect the people that actually endured suffering like that. And I don't see this presentation dodging that accusation. The horrors of the trans-atlantic slave trade don't translate into slavery in Athas for a number of reasons. One could have a reasonable reaction of "Why the hell are you telling a story about slavery that presents a context-free tour of brutality as if it was a fantasy? The people who were enslaved weren't enslaved by dragons, and weren't rescued by swords, they were enslaved by people, by economics, and they weren't rescued by magical heroes, they were emancipated piecemeal in ways that still aren't complete. Why is what happened to actual people something that you can play through in a game, without any of those actual people in it?"

This isn't necessarily a deal-breaker, but it'd be a concern I'd have, and the corollary would be: "How much do we HAVE to risk this? Is there a safer option?"

And there's always gonna be a safer option. Tiamat and Acerarak and Vecna are outsider threats to the fairly pleasant status quo of the worlds they menace. In a world full of comic book morality, they can be your acceptable alien punching bags. It's more difficult to thread the needle when evil is the every day reality, when "normal people" are implicated.

This is just a consideration I imagine WotC has, not something I'd really consider if I was to fan-reboot this or something. Things look different when you're considering the actions of the 600 lb gorilla.

 

[abirdcall]

It's solid. I'd definitely play it.

There's one big consideration I'd have as WotC, though.

How prepared are we for accusations of exploiting suffering for gain?

There's this trope where fiction shows people suffering the kinds of violence that minority communities suffer - things like SA or slavery - and have the heroes fight it. Fiction like this is often fairly accused of exploiting that suffering, using fictionalized versions of this violence in ways that fail to respect the people that actually endured suffering like that. And I don't see this presentation dodging that accusation. The horrors of the trans-atlantic slave trade don't translate into slavery in Athas for a number of reasons. One could have a reasonable reaction of "Why the hell are you telling a story about slavery that presents a context-free tour of brutality as if it was a fantasy? The people who were enslaved weren't enslaved by dragons, and weren't rescued by swords, they were enslaved by people, by economics, and they weren't rescued by magical heroes, they were emancipated piecemeal in ways that still aren't complete. Why is what happened to actual people something that you can play through in a game, without any of those actual people in it?"

This isn't necessarily a deal-breaker, but it'd be a concern I'd have, and the corollary would be: "How much do we HAVE to risk this? Is there a safer option?"

And there's always gonna be a safer option. Tiamat and Acerarak and Vecna are outsider threats to the fairly pleasant status quo of the worlds they menace. In a world full of comic book morality, they can be your acceptable alien punching bags. It's more difficult to thread the needle when evil is the every day reality, when "normal people" are implicated.

This is just a consideration I imagine WotC has, not something I'd really consider if I was to fan-reboot this or something. Things look different when you're considering the actions of the 600 lb gorilla.

The best solution to this sort of problem is to hire writers who are from those cultures and communities to do the writing.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Ironically in my experience many Cyberpunk stories I've encountered seem to lean more towards the cynical take where hope is foolish, so look out for yourself.

That's how I remember my years playing 2020, at least.

Still have all the books.

 

[Chaltab]

It's solid. I'd definitely play it.

There's one big consideration I'd have as WotC, though.

How prepared are we for accusations of exploiting suffering for gain?

i think there's a fine line to walk and it could easily be crossed, but past a certain point you can't guess or control how others react. I've always suspected that if Dark Sun does come back they'll use serfdom instead of slavery to sidestep the issue, because corpos gotta corp.

 

[Steampunkette]

@I'm A Banana

For my part I would have slavery in the work. And have it be a clear, unvarnished, evil. That most of the people in the setting acknowledge as evil, and hate, but are too afraid to interfere with because of the powers of the Sorcerer-Kings and the violence of the Templars.

I've never heard the "Exploiting Suffering" argument applied to fictional realms or violence and crimes in them. Like. Ever. I've heard people use the phrase to discuss current and historic events... but never a fictional setting.

And considering that D&D still -has- slaves and slavery in their settings... Hell, there's references to it in the core rulebooks.

Hobgoblins from the Monster Manual are noted to enslave people they conquer.

So the very notion of slavery itself isn't the problem. It's the societal construct around it, I think, in the setting. In the OG DS it was just "A Thing that Happens" with most people not caring that slaves exist in their societies.

All that said...

Yeah. Having cultural consultants weigh in is absolutely a thing. Even if I'm sure it would pass muster because it'd be presented as an outright evil to be opposed... I'd still listen to marginalized voices.

 

[MGibster]

It's been so long since I've played Dark Sun that I only remember my general impression of the game rather than too many specifics. i.e. I have the warm fuzzies for it but I'm not really married to any particular part of the setting. If I were to run a Dark Sun game again, I'd want the PCs to be the good guys, like I do in all my D&D games, and that means beating up the slavers and punting cannibal halflings.

 

[Chaltab]

The cannibal halflings were usually neutral IIRC. The tribes that didn't align with the Sorcerer Things anyway.

 

[Remathilis]

Your plan (in the OP) would fix pretty much all the issues I always had with the setting. I own the original 2e version boxed set and always found it so...depressing. Too much was intentionally morally grey in a world that didn't look morally grey to me it looked like a whole lot of evil that PCs really would want to fix.

Like I said, the 2e box read to me like a pizza cutter: all edge and no point. You were a supposed badass character. You were a half-giant with double HD, weapon specialization in multiple weapons and psionic powers guaranteed but you spent much of your time stealing water so as not to die. Ultimately you ended up either joining the system or simply exploiting it because changing it was out of the question.

(This is a critique of many Grimdark settings IMHO. As soon as players realize that the world is going to screw them over regardless of how good they are, they become barely better than the villains. They need to hope for a better tomorrow to motivate them to be better than the world they live in).

 

[ColinChapman]

Yeah, you'd need to revise the bands of wandering, thievin' gyp- er, elves. And cut the amount of cannibalism too. "Hey, halfling! Quit gnawing my leg! Owwww! What the hell?! Thri-Kreen dude, why are you joining in?!" And give the mul a name they call themselves, not just a variation on "mule" (which should probably be centered as a derogatory term used by the scum behind the eugenics).

It could work if well-presented in a, "This all sucks. Deeply. Here's why and how you can punch slaving, eugenics-enabling, ecological catastrophe-causing a-holes in the face! Get out there and save the world!"

Of course, you know the cacophonous shrieking it would cause among purists would put the wailings of a whole orchestra of the worst bards to shame.

 

[Micah Sweet]

It's solid. I'd definitely play it.

There's one big consideration I'd have as WotC, though.

How prepared are we for accusations of exploiting suffering for gain?

There's this trope where fiction shows people suffering the kinds of violence that minority communities suffer - things like SA or slavery - and have the heroes fight it. Fiction like this is often fairly accused of exploiting that suffering, using fictionalized versions of this violence in ways that fail to respect the people that actually endured suffering like that. And I don't see this presentation dodging that accusation. The horrors of the trans-atlantic slave trade don't translate into slavery in Athas for a number of reasons. One could have a reasonable reaction of "Why the hell are you telling a story about slavery that presents a context-free tour of brutality as if it was a fantasy? The people who were enslaved weren't enslaved by dragons, and weren't rescued by swords, they were enslaved by people, by economics, and they weren't rescued by magical heroes, they were emancipated piecemeal in ways that still aren't complete. Why is what happened to actual people something that you can play through in a game, without any of those actual people in it?"

This isn't necessarily a deal-breaker, but it'd be a concern I'd have, and the corollary would be: "How much do we HAVE to risk this? Is there a safer option?"

And there's always gonna be a safer option. Tiamat and Acerarak and Vecna are outsider threats to the fairly pleasant status quo of the worlds they menace. In a world full of comic book morality, they can be your acceptable alien punching bags. It's more difficult to thread the needle when evil is the every day reality, when "normal people" are implicated.

This is just a consideration I imagine WotC has, not something I'd really consider if I was to fan-reboot this or something. Things look different when you're considering the actions of the 600 lb gorilla.

Which is why I generally avoid considering them if possible. WotC's issues are not my issues.