NPC Deception/Persuasion and player agency

[Fenris-77]

Why wouldn't you get the expected outcome? The only way I see that happening is that the players ignore the dice results when they're applied to their PCs.

Because the DM doesn't get roll to decieve to have the PC let him past and then adjudicate his own roll. I've never in my life seen skill rolls played that way, although I suppose that people do. It's the second bit, the let him past, that isn't a usual part of the player facing skill roll process. Players usually decide their own actions, not have them dictated by a skill roll. The only D&D exception I can think of is spells, but that's different.

 

[Fenris-77]

Two things:

1. Note that this is in TTRPG, not one of the D&D fora;
2. Its not the case that all games make an intrinsic distinction between PCs and NPCs here, and even with ones that do, that distinction is not non-controversial.

I get that, but the basic idea of decieve as a skill rolled on a d20 applies pretty evenly to games that use that kind of mechanic (and have a decieve skill.

 

[KYRON45]

To assume people were not talking about this sort of thing 40 years ago is to simply note you were not hanging in the right spaces 40 years ago.

Forty years ago me and mine were playing the games we loved with dedication: not telling strangers what we hate so much about this thing we dedicate so much time to. When there was something about a game we didn't like we talked to our DM and he told us to DM ourselves or shut up.

Be free. Engage in the conversation in whatever way brings you joy.

 

[Thomas Shey]

I'm not even sure how'd you'd manage that. When a player declares an SI interaction there's a bit about expected outcome - so I'm going to decieve the guard into thinking I'm a castle page so he'll let me into the castle. You don't get the expected outcome with skill checks related to PCs. They just aren't the same thing, so I struggle to see how you can 'apply the same rules'. What am I missing?

The question is why you don't get the expected outcome. I'd argue that's largely either because the social skill rolls as they apply to NPCs are overly simplistic, or people playing have an extremely strong sense that their characters should not be subject to such rules and as such resist. I don't find either of these entirely desirable situations (nor the complete lack of social interaction mechanics because of the way it chokes of certain character concepts).

 

[Thomas Shey]

I get that, but the basic idea of decieve as a skill rolled on a d20 applies pretty evenly to games that use that kind of mechanic (and have a decieve skill.

But what its supposed to mean and how its applied is anything but similar. Among other things other games do not in all case apply a special status to PCs in these situations.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Forty years ago me and mine were playing the games we loved with dedication: not telling strangers what we hate so much about this thing we dedicate so much time to. When there was something about a game we didn't like we talked to our DM and he told us to DM ourselves or shut up.

I do not see how that counters my statement at all.

 

[KYRON45]

I do not see how that counters my statement at all.

It doesn't.
Not all conversations are arguments.
You made a comment then I made a comment. That's it.

 

[Fenris-77]

But what its supposed to mean and how its applied is anything but similar. Among other things other games do not in all case apply a special status to PCs in these situations.

I tell you what, I don't want to argue at cross purposes so perhaps you could provide an example of a game where something like a decieve roll in any way forces responses on a player, as per the examples we've been noodling about above. This isn't a passive agresssive thing, I'm just not sure what you actually mean and it would be helpful to have an example.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Because the DM doesn't get roll to decieve to have the PC let him past and then adjudicate his own roll. I've never in my life seen skill rolls played that way, although I suppose that people do. It's the second bit, the let him past, that isn't a usual part of the player facing skill roll process. Players usually decide their own actions, not have them dictated by a skill roll. The only D&D exception I can think of is spells, but that's different.

In 5e Deception is largely opposed by Insight. I see no reason it can't be the NPCs Deception and the PCs Insight.

 

[Fenris-77]

In 5e Deception is largely opposed by Insight. I see no reason it can't be the NPCs Deception and the PCs Insight.

Yeah, but that leads us back to expected adjudication. Player actions in D&D have a declared outcome, DM actions don't in the same way. I was looking for an example that was different.