NPC Deception/Persuasion and player agency

[FrogReaver]

Doesn't the DM pick all of the DCs regardless of its for a PC or not?

Normally. The point is that it’s not the same resolution for PC and NPC when he does so. The person controlling the characters mind is really the only one that can say what the DC in a social situation should be. That’s why it works well when the DM sets the DC for NPCs.

 

[KYRON45]

Normally. The point is that it’s not the same resolution for PC and NPC when he does so. The person controlling the characters mind is really the only one that can say what the DC in a social situation should be. That’s why it works well when the DM sets the DC for NPCs.

This is what i see skill checks as:

Child: Can i have some ice cream?
Parent: Maybe.
Child: Yay, were gonna get ice cream

Skill checks.....the lies of the RPG world.

That was a better formed thought in my head. Live and learn i guess.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Normally. The point is that it’s not the same resolution for PC and NPC when he does so. The person controlling the characters mind is really the only one that can say what the DC in a social situation should be. That’s why it works well when the DM sets the DC for NPCs.

Funny you should say so, I was just concluding that the next campaign I run, while it has social influence skills, I'm going to let the player set the modifier (which is used instead of DC since most such things will be resisted) for such skills applying to the character. I'll probably sit down and have a talk with any of them that consistently make it hard (because it smacks of bad faith) but there's no reason I should be the one to decide that.

 

[FrogReaver]

This is what i see skill checks as:

Child: Can i have some ice cream?
Parent: Maybe.
Child: Yay, were gonna get ice cream

Skill checks.....the lies of the RPG world.

That was a better formed thought in my head. Live and learn i guess.

All children know maybe always means no.

 

[KYRON45]

All children know maybe always means no.

And players always think passing a skill check means something good.

 

[Bill Zebub]

If a PC can roll to deceive with a skill, so can NPCs.

Completely disagree here. NPCs are not PCs.

I'll put a stake in the ground and say that in my (and a lot of players') opinion it is no fun to be told, "Yeah, you may know he's lying, but your character doesn't, so act like it." I get that there are some people who really get into that kind of character acting, but I think it sucks. If your players are into that, great. But if not, don't shove it down their throats.

I think the key to having an NPC adversary with a "deception" flavor is to make the deception a fun storytelling aspect of the NPCs personality, but don't make the plot depend on it. In other words, don't set things up so that if the players figure out he's lying about something, that something doesn't spoil the plot.

What I would do is overload the deception so that he's constantly lying/deceiving about everything, even mundane things (here I think of Kruschev's response to an American reporter who, frustrated that he wouldn't answer anything of substance, asked the Soviet leader what he had for breakfast. "That's classified.").

Then, the key is that sometimes this NPC is not lying. The players won't know when he is and when he isn't.

 

[Bill Zebub]

Actually, I want to expand on that "Players are not NPCs” thing.

According to 5e rules, we are supposed to use dice when the outcome is uncertain, and the outcome matters. Let's assume that the outcome does matter.

In the case of a PC lying, the reason the outcome...whether or not the NPC believes the PC...is uncertain is a) the DM decides it is so, and b) the DM has full knowledge of the setting, and whether or not the player is lying, so can't possibly put him/herself into the head of that particular NPC.

But in the reverse case, the player does not have all that setting knowledge, and only has one character...their own...to worry about. So there's no uncertainty: if the player believe the NPC, they believe them. If they don't believe them, they don't believe them.

And, again, if the DM designs an adventure such that successfully deceiving the players is key to the story, that's the DM's fault.

 

[payn]

Completely disagree here. NPCs are not PCs.

I'll put a stake in the ground and say that in my (and a lot of players') opinion it is no fun to be told, "Yeah, you may know he's lying, but your character doesn't, so act like it." I get that there are some people who really get into that kind of character acting, but I think it sucks. If your players are into that, great. But if not, don't shove it down their throats.

I think the key to having an NPC adversary with a "deception" flavor is to make the deception a fun storytelling aspect of the NPCs personality, but don't make the plot depend on it. In other words, don't set things up so that if the players figure out he's lying about something, that something doesn't spoil the plot.

What I would do is overload the deception so that he's constantly lying/deceiving about everything, even mundane things (here I think of Kruschev's response to an American reporter who, frustrated that he wouldn't answer anything of substance, asked the Soviet leader what he had for breakfast. "That's classified.").

Then, the key is that sometimes this NPC is not lying. The players won't know when he is and when he isn't.

Of course, the entire endeavor should never come down to single roll. I've pointed out numerous times now that skills are not mind control. As for NPCs are not PCs, If you want to give your PCs super powers and play fantasy super friends have at it I wont stop your fun.

 

[Bill Zebub]

As for NPCs are not PCs, If you want to give your PCs super powers and play fantasy super friends have at it I wont stop your fun.

That makes zero sense.

 

[payn]

That makes zero sense.

Right I don’t get what you are saying either. NPCs not like PC was an unchaining of the rules so NPCs could have things the PCs don’t. Like legendary defense abilities etc.. The intention isn’t to give PCs immunity from NPC effect. If anything, some NPC social skills ought to have greater effect under this design choice.

Though let’s examine PC immunity to NPC influence. Is it just social skills the PCs are immune to? Why not other skills? Why not enchantment magic as well? Where is it outlined how the PCs are greater than and that NPC are less than.

Also, this was a general discussion on how RPGs ought to work and not sure if the OP intended a 5E discussion but it’s a interesting topic.