NPC Deception/Persuasion and player agency

[pemerton]

According to DnD Beyond,

Your Charisma (Performance) check determines how well you can delight an audience with music, dance, acting, storytelling, or some other form of entertainment.​

So suppose a NPC performs. And the GM rolls for their performance, and the result is (let's say) 25. It seems hard to remain consistent with what the rules say, and yet leave it open to player to decide whether or not they think the performance was well-done and delightful.

 

[payn]

Maybe - but back then we weren't familiar with the wide range of possibilities in social resolution (even though Prince Valiant existed, I had never read it let alone played it). And didn't have an especially sophisticated understanding of system as a key analytical term for discussing RPGing. So we wouldn't have thought of a player who ignored the NPC's Duping result as breaking the rules but more like being a bad sport, being a bad roleplayer, etc.

This. I think going against the spirit of the context of the situation and playing from a pure meta stand point is what im against. I dont use rules to enforce role playing, but do view them as a sort of guide of that context. You can still do quite a bit wihtin the context of the situation that some cant see beyond a binary response. Its easy to uinderstand why, since most skills do work in a binary manner.

 

[payn]

According to DnD Beyond,

Your Charisma (Performance) check determines how well you can delight an audience with music, dance, acting, storytelling, or some other form of entertainment.​

So suppose a NPC performs. And the GM rolls for their performance, and the result is (let's say) 25. It seems hard to remain consistent with what the rules say, and yet leave it open to player to decide whether or not they think the performance was well-done and delightful.

Right, Id likely only use a skill check in a joke manner in an audience situation. Generally, the audience finds the joke funny and well told, but an individual can still not find it funny.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

According to DnD Beyond,

Your Charisma (Performance) check determines how well you can delight an audience with music, dance, acting, storytelling, or some other form of entertainment.​

So suppose a NPC performs. And the GM rolls for their performance, and the result is (let's say) 25. It seems hard to remain consistent with what the rules say, and yet leave it open to player to decide whether or not they think the performance was well-done and delightful.

I'd describe the NPC performing very well and that the audience seems to be really into it, but I would not force the PCs to like the performance. I'm sure that there is quite a bit of music you can agree is technically well made and of high quality and many people like it, but you still personally are not into?

Granted, this is such a low stakes thing that I'd expect the players to just go along with it and play their characters liking the performance.

 

[Bill Zebub]

s
Even barring my response to him, sometimes you have to make compromises in some areas to get what you want in others.

Sure, but then maybe one should also be willing to make some playstyle compromises?

 

[Bill Zebub]

I'd describe the NPC performing very well and that the audience seems to be really into it, but I would not force the PCs to like the performance. I'm sure that there is quite a bit of music you can agree is technically well made and of high quality and many people like it, but you still personally are not into?

Granted, this is such a low stakes thing that I'd expect the players to just go along with it and play their characters liking the performance.

Agree, and good example. In the case of an NPC performing I would roll (or just rule…what’s the point of rolling here?) and then describe the result, but without telling players how it affects their characters. If the players then want their characters to not like it, for whatever reason, that's fine. (Even better if they have a narrative reason for not liking it, but not required.)

I mean, that happens in real life, right? I've certainly been to performances, of various kinds, where the rest of the audience (apparently) loves it, but I feel otherwise.

 

[Hriston]

According to DnD Beyond,

Your Charisma (Performance) check determines how well you can delight an audience with music, dance, acting, storytelling, or some other form of entertainment.​

So suppose a NPC performs. And the GM rolls for their performance, and the result is (let's say) 25. It seems hard to remain consistent with what the rules say, and yet leave it open to player to decide whether or not they think the performance was well-done and delightful.

This raises the question why the GM rolls. Remaining consistent with the rules requires taking this into consideration:

The DM calls for an ability check when a character or monster attempts an action (other than an attack) that has a chance of failure. When the outcome is uncertain, the dice determine the results.​

​

As well as this:

Roleplaying is, literally, the act of playing out a role. In this case, it’s you as a player determining how your character thinks, acts, and talks.​

​

So, if the question is how a PC reacts to an NPC's performance, there's no uncertainty because the player determines how the PC reacts, therefore there is no roll.

 

[payn]

This raises the question why the GM rolls. Remaining consistent with the rules requires taking this into consideration:

The DM calls for an ability check when a character or monster attempts an action (other than an attack) that has a chance of failure. When the outcome is uncertain, the dice determine the results.​

​

As well as this:

Roleplaying is, literally, the act of playing out a role. In this case, it’s you as a player determining how your character thinks, acts, and talks.​

​

So, if the question is how a PC reacts to an NPC's performance, there's no uncertainty because the player determines how the PC reacts, therefore there is no roll.

If im rolling its not going to be to force a PC to like the joke/performance. It's likely there is much more context to it then that. The PCs may have set the stage to embarrass the NPC, so the check determines if it happens or not. The NPC might be trying to embarrass the PCs to a crowd, so the check is to see if that happens. This is likely the result of some kind of scheme or scene coming to a head, or proceeding in a sequence.

I dont understand where the weaponizing the skill system against the players idea comes from.

 

[Thomas Shey]

You can use the narrative expectation to obfuscate the truth as well though. Have the NPC fit an obvious narrative trope, but that is just their cover and their real purpose is something else.

That's an example of the red herring I mentioned. Like I said, it requires some subtlety if people are used to it. I won't try to estimate how many people can pull that off against the alert.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I'd describe the NPC performing very well and that the audience seems to be really into it, but I would not force the PCs to like the performance. I'm sure that there is quite a bit of music you can agree is technically well made and of high quality and many people like it, but you still personally are not into?

Granted, this is such a low stakes thing that I'd expect the players to just go along with it and play their characters liking the performance.

Interesting that you mentioned stakes as a factor concerning whether or not social mechanics should be abided by by PCs. Why should stakes matter? Are the rules different if the player thinks it's more important?