NPC Deception/Persuasion and player agency

[Bill Zebub]

By the way, I'm enjoying the irony of being told by somebody named "soviet" that the game will tell me what my character thinks.

"Yes, that makes sense to me that Sauron was forced to engage in a special military operation because the western imperialists refused to hand over his personal property."

 

[Hriston]

Can you say more about how your reconcile/integrate these two paragraphs?

Of course! When events in the game world, i.e. the results of the NPC's successful Charisma (Performance) checks, begin to mount up in contradiction to the PC's stated opinion of the NPC's degree of talent, the player might feel the PC is obliged to acknowledge the NPC's raw talent, regardless of their personal opinion or dislike for the NPC's style. The PC could form a new belief about the NPC: "So and so's talent is widely acknowledged by many, but their style just isn't to my taste." Taking an example from @Bill Zebub's post #209, when the politician NPC wins an election as a result of a successful Charisma check, the player who had stated their PC found the NPC utterly repugnant and couldn't believe that anyone would vote for him will have that belief challenged to some degree because they will have, in part, been proven wrong. They might acknowledge that, in fact, the NPC is a savy politician after all, or they might form a new belief such as "Good leadership is in the eye of the beholder. There's no rhyme or reason to what people will find appealing in their leaders."

 

[Bill Zebub]

Of course! When events in the game world, i.e. the results of the NPC's successful Charisma (Performance) checks, begin to mount up in contradiction to the PC's stated opinion of the NPC's degree of talent, the player might feel the PC is obliged to acknowledge the NPC's raw talent, regardless of their personal opinion or dislike for the NPC's style. The PC could form a new belief about the NPC: "So and so's talent is widely acknowledged by many, but their style just isn't to my taste." Taking an example from @Bill Zebub's post #209, when the politician NPC wins an election as a result of a successful Charisma check, the player who had stated their PC found the NPC utterly repugnant and couldn't believe that anyone would vote for him will have that belief challenged to some degree because they will have, in part, been proven wrong. They might acknowledge that, in fact, the NPC is a savy politician after all, or they might form a new belief such as "Good leadership is in the eye of the beholder. There's no rhyme or reason to what people will find appealing in their leaders."

Alternately, one might pay a price for having different beliefs. Everybody thinks the new Emperor is the bee's knees, so your doubts and suspicions causes others to view YOU with doubt and suspicion.

 

[Hriston]

Alternately, one might pay a price for having different beliefs. Everybody thinks the new Emperor is the bee's knees, so your doubts and suspicions causes others to view YOU with doubt and suspicion.

Sure, that could be the result of a failed ability check on your part to influence the outcome of the election.

 

[Aldarc]

By the way, I'm enjoying the irony of being told by somebody named "soviet" that the game will tell me what my character thinks.

This sort of snide reductionist argument doesn't help anything, Bill. Moreover, if you can't be bothered to actually engage people's arguments in good faith about why they would want these sort of social mechanics, then why on earth would you expect that they treat your argument with any good faith in return?

 

[Bill Zebub]

This sort of snide reductionist argument doesn't help anything, Bill. Moreover, if you can't be bothered to actually engage people's arguments in good faith about why they would want these sort of social mechanics, then why on earth would you expect that they treat your argument with any good faith in return?

Oh, I apologize (to @soviet)! I genuinely did not mean that as a snide insult! I just thought it was...funny.

But, yes, re-reading what I wrote, if one imagines a dismissive/derisive tone of voice, I can see how it would be taken that way.

Again, I apologize. It was meant as 100% good-natured humor.

EDIT: I am 100% NOT saying that that user's arguments carry less weight because of their chosen avatar name.

 

[soviet]

Soviet trivia: I've gone by this user name for nearly 30 years, it's taken from a song I liked by the band Electronic.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Another thought experiment: the slippery villain NPC "makes a persuasion roll" (I hate the very phrase) and FAILS, but Susie Roleplayer says, "Actually, I think he makes a great point and I believe him!"

Do you allow it?

People fall down without being successfully pushed. Someone can get a desired result without being particularly effective in their own attempts when someone else produces it for themselves.

Almost any persuasion attempt is targeted at groups that include people who don't need persuasion.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Alternately, one might pay a price for having different beliefs. Everybody thinks the new Emperor is the bee's knees, so your doubts and suspicions causes others to view YOU with doubt and suspicion.

I have to point out that can be true even if they failed at their roll too. In-game reactions to your decisions do not actually have much to do with the function of a persuasion roll.

 

[Bill Zebub]

People fall down without being successfully pushed. Someone can get a desired result without being particularly effective in their own attempts when someone else produces it for themselves.

Almost any persuasion attempt is targeted at groups that include people who don't need persuasion.

And the opposite is true: someone can get an undesired result while being particularly effective.

Once again I fall back on "People are more creative and nuanced than dice."