OSR Dragonslayer RPG truly delivers.

[ColinChapman]

Overall though, it is meant to be a tough game for tough players.

"Tough game", eh? Does it have Phoenix Command levels of rules minutiae or mathematics? Because that was as close to tough as I've seen any RPG get. Seriously, it was HARD.

"Tough players", huh? Do you have to chew your metal dice before you roll them or punch each other to simulate critical hits?

 

[Jfdlsjfd]

Greg is a professor and requires students to purchase his work.

How many B/X-AD&D mash-ups does the world need?

Regardless of the product, I will never send a dime to Gillespie. I think Jahydin undersells Gillespie’s politics. I recommend you take a look at his RateMyProfessor page for some insight.

Also, while I had to purchase a number of textbooks that various professors wrote, I was never forced to provide a receipt showing that I had bought a new copy. That is nothing but immoral.

Sorry for adding to the thread derail, but it's really awful professsional practice. There are professors who made books and who teach things in a way that just buying their book is enough to get the exact same information, and without more attention to individual effort, and that's already a sign that they are not adding a lot of value by teaching. If I could be replaced when teaching by reading a book on the topic, I'd step down from teaching this course and just tell the student to read the damn book. But still, not everyone loves to teach and some great researcher can be very average teachers, so it's understandable that this situation happens. However, forcing people to buy their own book, it seems beyond the pale to me.

On the other hand, I looked at the RateMyProfessor site... I am not certain I am confident in the opinion they report. The first review I got for this particular professor was tagged with: (LOTS OF HOMEWORK) and (SKIP CLASS, YOU WON'T PASS), leading to a very bad mark. So basically, teachers get bad grades because they require students to work and attend the class? Wow... The top tags are also (LECTURE HEAVY), (THOUGH GRADER) and (RESPECTED), with many post complaining about having a lot of work to do. I loved the complaints about him posting no resources like podcast so people are obliged to attend his classes... The whole site strikes me as strange, where basically failing students complains about lessons they failed, while A students say "it's quite easy" "this teacher is nice" and so on...

Interestingly, I clicked on his colleague "Sicun Gao" and "Tailor Greg-Fitzpatrick" who got a near top grade (4.9/5) and they were rated with difficulty 2.4 and 2.7 respectively, while his own course was rated with difficulty 3.8. Many comments (all from A/A+ students) on Professor Gao emphasize the lots of opportunity to get extra credit. It seems that to be a beloved professor, you just need to make everyone pass or don't ask too much from the students? I wouldn't take bad mark on this site as a bad sign of anyone's teaching ability.

 

[Jahydin]

Sorry for adding to the thread derail, but it's really awful professsional practice.

I think with most things, it really depends on the quality of the textbook. A good chunk of my professors made us buy their material and for the most part I didn't mind. Having the perfect book the instructor knew inside out to study for your exam did make it easier.

Now, the ones who sold us their syllabus (required to pass) tacked onto a collection of their scribbled notes or the ones who cobbled together an assortment of public domain works (who would edit them in such a way you HAD to buy their version) deserve the ridicule IMO.

It seems that to be a beloved professor, you just need to make everyone pass or don't ask too much from the students? I wouldn't take bad mark on this site as a bad sign of anyone's teaching ability.

That's exactly right. I never once looked at it my entire time at University. If I was going to go massively in debt, I was going to at least come out smarter and more capable and that only comes from being challenged.

Also, most programs have classes designed to "weed out" the unmotivated, and those instructors always get rated poorly despite being a necessity. For me, that was one class that was 8AM, 4x a week; late more than 3x and you were dropped. Another where the class average was a "D" and we were told grading on a curve wasn't happening; spoiler: it was, and everyone who stuck with it and did decent passed. Seems underhanded, but being able to show up to work on time and learning how to deal with failure without quitting are lessons just as important as the actual engineering.

 

[Warpiglet-7]

I was able to read the preview and then some.

I have to say, I am very impressed. I suppose the question is why not go BECMI? That is not really easy for me to answer. I do own becmi on pdf…save immortals. But I digress.

I guess you could say I am all in of 5e generally. I have all the books and so many minis…like the thousands in prepainted minis…terrain….you name it.

But I was really drawn to the aesthetic of dragonslayer and quite unexpectedly so.

I am prepping a 5e adventure for my kids and it is fiddly. It’s my primary game but there are times I ask if it is worth it. Sometimes yes I think I want the chrome.

Other times? Rolling under your ability score sounds pretty nice for resolution.

I could use donjon to make a map if I have a story in mind and start playing fast…

I like that there is multiclassing and a broader array of classes. I also like initiative and flanking.

I am probably going to buy it…as an alternative to 5e. I realize it’s all taste but some of the osr stuff with poor art direction is not for me. Dragonslayer PC art really works for me and gets me in the mood.

I don’t see me dumping 5e…but I do think this would be my flavor of an older style alternative for “sometimes.”

 

[Jahydin]

I don’t see me dumping 5e…but I do think this would be my flavor of an older style alternative for “sometimes.”

I hear that. As much as I dislike 5E, it's still the game I run when playing with younger kids or people new to the hobby. Because of that, 5E has seen way more play than any of my OSR systems. Like 10 to 1.

I have to say, I am very impressed. I suppose the question is why not go BECMI?

Rules Cyclopedia is one my most treasured books, but there's enough small, personal annoyances that make me want to run other games. For instance, I think the new ACKS (#1 title on Drive-Thru at the moment!) is the best version of BECMI period.

My thought process that has led me to Dragonslayer is: I like AD&D more than B/X, but really dislike many of the AD&D rules, so an AD&D clone that fixes the rules but keeps the spirit and tone is what I'm after. I've found the top four here are: Castles and Crusades, Hyperborea, OSRIC, and Dragonslayer. C&C is moving away from D&D terminology and OSRIC keeps too many of the rules I dislike (percentage strength, yuck), so Hyperborea and Draonslayer have my attention at the moment. Since Hyperborea is more S&S than LotR, Dragonslayer is what wins out for me as my D&D replacement.

 

[Warpiglet-7]

I hear that. As much as I dislike 5E, it's still the game I run when playing with younger kids or people new to the hobby. Because of that, 5E has seen way more play than any of my OSR systems. Like 10 to 1.


Rules Cyclopedia is one my most treasured books, but there's enough small, personal annoyances that make me want to run other games. For instance, I think the new ACKS (#1 title on Drive-Thru at the moment!) is the best version of BECMI period.

My thought process that has led me to Dragonslayer is: I like AD&D more than B/X, but really dislike many of the AD&D rules, so an AD&D clone that fixes the rules but keeps the spirit and tone is what I'm after. I've found the top four here are: Castles and Crusades, Hyperborea, OSRIC, and Dragonslayer. C&C is moving away from D&D terminology and OSRIC keeps too many of the rules I dislike (percentage strength, yuck), so Hyperborea and Draonslayer have my attention at the moment. Since Hyperborea is more S&S than LotR, Dragonslayer is what wins out for me as my D&D replacement.

yeah, i think my pals would play it. i inisist on grids and minis and looks like that is not a problem either.

i actually do like 5e a lot. but it is such a different itch that is scratched. if you want to have a character you are pretty sure you will keep longer term...i mean not 100% but you know...and you want bits to fiddle with in combat...i think it has that.

What i dont like is the amount of tacked on bits. there are so many class related special abilities, i just dont care anymore about magic items. like at all. and after you buy armor...money is not so valued.

I miss the days of big hauls and excitment about items. some days i want a more intricate combat with more dials...i think with these two games i can have both...on different days of course...

 

[Jahydin]

yeah, i think my pals would play it. i inisist on grids and minis and looks like that is not a problem either.

i actually do like 5e a lot. but it is such a different itch that is scratched. if you want to have a character you are pretty sure you will keep longer term...i mean not 100% but you know...and you want bits to fiddle with in combat...i think it has that.

What i dont like is the amount of tacked on bits. there are so many class related special abilities, i just dont care anymore about magic items. like at all. and after you buy armor...money is not so valued.

I miss the days of big hauls and excitment about items. some days i want a more intricate combat with more dials...i think with these two games i can have both...on different days of course...

Thankfully, my "hardcore" group has moved to PF2R and really liking the tactics, caring about gold, and the complex builds that can be made. We will probably never go back to 5E (maybe LevelUp though).

Also, appreciate that there is no randomness to character creation. That put's everyone on equal footing, makes the combat math tighter, and character death sting a little less (since you just make another character at the same level that's just as good).

 

[Some Dude]

Sorry for adding to the thread derail, but it's really awful professsional practice. There are professors who made books and who teach things in a way that just buying their book is enough to get the exact same information, and without more attention to individual effort, and that's already a sign that they are not adding a lot of value by teaching. If I could be replaced when teaching by reading a book on the topic, I'd step down from teaching this course and just tell the student to read the damn book. But still, not everyone loves to teach and some great researcher can be very average teachers, so it's understandable that this situation happens. However, forcing people to buy their own book, it seems beyond the pale to me.

On the other hand, I looked at the RateMyProfessor site... I am not certain I am confident in the opinion they report. The first review I got for this particular professor was tagged with: (LOTS OF HOMEWORK) and (SKIP CLASS, YOU WON'T PASS), leading to a very bad mark. So basically, teachers get bad grades because they require students to work and attend the class? Wow... The top tags are also (LECTURE HEAVY), (THOUGH GRADER) and (RESPECTED), with many post complaining about having a lot of work to do. I loved the complaints about him posting no resources like podcast so people are obliged to attend his classes... The whole site strikes me as strange, where basically failing students complains about lessons they failed, while A students say "it's quite easy" "this teacher is nice" and so on...

Interestingly, I clicked on his colleague "Sicun Gao" and "Tailor Greg-Fitzpatrick" who got a near top grade (4.9/5) and they were rated with difficulty 2.4 and 2.7 respectively, while his own course was rated with difficulty 3.8. Many comments (all from A/A+ students) on Professor Gao emphasize the lots of opportunity to get extra credit. It seems that to be a beloved professor, you just need to make everyone pass or don't ask too much from the students? I wouldn't take bad mark on this site as a bad sign of anyone's teaching ability.

Ratemyprofessor seems like it'd be real easy to review bomb. This isn't something I just noticed with Gillespie, I've been aware of it for years. As such, I tend to look sideways at anything posted there.

I think with most things, it really depends on the quality of the textbook. A good chunk of my professors made us buy their material and for the most part I didn't mind. Having the perfect book the instructor knew inside out to study for your exam did make it easier.

Now, the ones who sold us their syllabus (required to pass) tacked onto a collection of their scribbled notes or the ones who cobbled together an assortment of public domain works (who would edit them in such a way you HAD to buy their version) deserve the ridicule IMO.


That's exactly right. I never once looked at it my entire time at University. If I was going to go massively in debt, I was going to at least come out smarter and more capable and that only comes from being challenged.

Also, most programs have classes designed to "weed out" the unmotivated, and those instructors always get rated poorly despite being a necessity. For me, that was one class that was 8AM, 4x a week; late more than 3x and you were dropped. Another where the class average was a "D" and we were told grading on a curve wasn't happening; spoiler: it was, and everyone who stuck with it and did decent passed. Seems underhanded, but being able to show up to work on time and learning how to deal with failure without quitting are lessons just as important as the actual engineering.

I thing the bigger issue for most is that Gillespie requires students to purchase a new copy of his book, and show a proof of purchase. If I'm not mistaken, most professors don't care where you buy the book (so you can get it second hand), so long as you get it. That's what seemed to push this past SOP and into questionable territory for some people.

None of which matters to me, as he isn't my prof. But his politics and associations are enough to keep me far, far away from anything he's written.

 

[Gus L]

I thing the bigger issue for most is that Gillespie requires students to purchase a new copy of his book, and show a proof of purchase. If I'm not mistaken, most professors don't care where you buy the book (so you can get it second hand), so long as you get it. That's what seemed to push this past SOP and into questionable territory for some people.

None of which matters to me, as he isn't my prof. But his politics and associations are enough to keep me far, far away from anything he's written.

there are a lot of rumors about the guy - I don't know if they are true. Rumors about incentivizing students to give his books high ratings and such as well.

My own experience is that I have read Barrowmaze (decent for its era with some really nice bits and pieces) and Dwarrowdeep. Dwarrowdeep is bad - it is everything not to like in the sort of pure nostalgia style of RPG design - basically its a long series of raids on underground fortifications in the sort of blandest manner possible. It's unfortunate, because it also could have been really cool - there's a lot of nice art in it, but MERP's Moria from the 80's does a better job for example.

I wrote this long review of it if:

Spectral Interrogatories V - Dwarrowdeep

Dwarrowdeep has Good Art I don’t know Greg Gillespie, I don’t have any intense feeling for his work or his design history, as while I have l...

bonesofcontention.blogspot.com

My point is that his work hasn't impressed me much since Barrowmaze, and that's enough for me to ignore his B/X clone. It's not as if there aren't plenty of other B/X clones with free editions and really B/X itself is a cheap PDF. Just stop making B/X clones people.

Make setting book instead. One that's not about 800 AD Europe or Vikings etc. At least someone would find a bucket of B/X rules for Napoleonic seafaring useful. 1920's space adventure? Muppets battling giant vegetables? I don't care - but no one needs another "Gygaxian" B/X clone in 2025.

 

[Warpiglet-7]

there are a lot of rumors about the guy - I don't know if they are true. Rumors about incentivizing students to give his books high ratings and such as well.

My own experience is that I have read Barrowmaze (decent for its era with some really nice bits and pieces) and Dwarrowdeep. Dwarrowdeep is bad - it is everything not to like in the sort of pure nostalgia style of RPG design - basically its a long series of raids on underground fortifications in the sort of blandest manner possible. It's unfortunate, because it also could have been really cool - there's a lot of nice art in it, but MERP's Moria from the 80's does a better job for example.

I wrote this long review of it if:

Spectral Interrogatories V - Dwarrowdeep

Dwarrowdeep has Good Art I don’t know Greg Gillespie, I don’t have any intense feeling for his work or his design history, as while I have l...

bonesofcontention.blogspot.com

My point is that his work hasn't impressed me much since Barrowmaze, and that's enough for me to ignore his B/X clone. It's not as if there aren't plenty of other B/X clones with free editions and really B/X itself is a cheap PDF. Just stop making B/X clones people.

Make setting book instead. One that's not about 800 AD Europe or Vikings etc. At least someone would find a bucket of B/X rules for Napoleonic seafaring useful. 1920's space adventure? Muppets battling giant vegetables? I don't care - but no one needs another "Gygaxian" B/X clone in 2025.

I don’t know the guy…and rumors from disgruntled students don’t really factor into anything for me.

I am glad that to see someone actually looked at one of his products and are talking about that whether they liked or not and why.

I just got barrowmaze for 5e for christmas. It was a surprise (had never heard of it) and I like it quite well. That is what made me look at dragonslayer.

Until now all of the retroclone talk made me zone out. I bought pdfs of all the becmi stuff a few years back and could not grasp why not just use that. We played a bit and I missed some AD&D bits and we just went back to 5e.

Anyway I read the whole of dragonslayer. It really grabbed me. I think it could be the art which is exceptionally cool. So cool that it made me want to play it instead of my upcoming 5e game…it is literally my favorite recent game art in memory.

The criticism I don’t get is “we don’t need this.” How does a choice cause a problem? If you like OSE or BECMI and like it…stick with it! I however and glad to see this offering. It’s a choice that might get me to play old school where say OSE would not.

I found the clear grounding in traditional fantasy refreshing. A return to lawful good paladins did not hurt my feelings and neither did I miss the characters with blue skin shooting lasers from their tails. I mean I love 5e (especially warlocks) and am playing it tonight! But the art really got me pumped as did a few of the tweaks and honestly? Limitations.

Sadly, it hard to have a conversation about his products, I am finding. Instead of criticism about something being bland or derivative or novel and cool a lot of folks are dismissive and shut conversation down because they don’t like something he said on a podcast once or a rumor he is a mean teacher that made a student buy his book.

I am not defending the guy. Don’t know him. Don’t know what terrible thing he said. But I think this product has a lot to offer someone wanting to play a different BX with the best art. There are some tweaks to race selection and class offerings.

Sucks that it is hard to find real pro and con discussion of the products as people instead think their restatement of their world views are somehow more interesting.

I am trying to see if there have been any clarifications to the things I noted when I read the book. And if not, what that means about me making a purchase. The book snd pdf are not cheap…

If it becomes my every other game session choice (not dropping 5e), I need to think those bits through. My guess is since it’s old school I am supposed to figure those portions out and make a ruling. It’s ok but if I pay for a game I want as much of the basics explicit as possible.

Is survival an ability check of some kind? Do we not worry about that?

So while this might be the palate cleanser I have been looking for I am prepping to DM for a Kenku, Goblin, plant person and dwarf party tonight and it will also be fun.

I will decide in the next few weeks if I am making a purchase. I am leaning toward “yes” at this time.