Am I using the right system?

[Himbo_Jones]

Stop me if you've heard this one before: I'm currently planning a game in 5e, but there are some holes in the system that I'm currently patching up with homebrew.

To keep this from turning into an essay on the minutiae of particular inclinations toward TTRPGs, I will just say that I like a fair bit of crunch in my games (martial combat maneuvers, weapon skills, robust crafting systems, professions the players can pick up during downtime, rules for raising and leading an army, heck even rules for characters going steadily mad from the horrors of the unknown), and have been gathering homebrew/building my own to compensate and it's all becoming... a lot, obviously. I don't mind "a lot", but I also don't want to be doing all of this work when there might just be a simpler answer in the form of a system that does what I am looking for.

Why do I stick with 5e, though? It's not like I haven't tried other systems. I've played a lot of AD&D 1e which has been a blast and has pushed me to use "gritty resting" and "safe haven" style rules in my 5e games. I've also played some Pathfinder 2e which has given me the inclination toward making homebrew abilities to sprinkle over my characters as rewards (I also learned to do this from Matt Colville, who suggested just taking class abilities from other editions and including them in your games). Beyond that, I've done Savage Worlds, some Vampire the Masquerade, and a smattering of other RPGs that I've mostly just read more than I've played.

In spite of all of this, there are a couple of reasons I'm stuck on 5e and why I defaulted to it when I began making this campaign:

• Bounded Accuracy. It's something that I really like and I sometimes struggle to articulate actually why. As much as I enjoy my players (or even as a player) getting a lot of new abilities (and it is certainly necessary), I tend to like it more when those abilities to be side-grades rather than upgrades. It's more interesting, in my opinion, to have more options than always a better option. I also like it when a lock is a lock. Sure, a character can get really good at picking locks, but they don't ever (in my opinion) become the god of picking locks. Similarly, I like being able to keep a goblin camp around well into the late game and have it still be somewhat of a threat (Tucker's Kobolds comes to mind here, but that's only if I'm feeling particularly sadistic).
• Character Classes. I just like them. I like it when a class has a niche that they fill. The tank can do tank stuff, the back like does the pew-pew but dies in two hits, and healers. I love healers. Playing them is dope for me and GMing for them is also a blast if only because it means I can really ratchet up the difficulty of encounters when I have a party with an efficient healer. It's just fun all around for me.
• Homebrew. This is the big one for me, honestly. And I do mean it's probably the #1 reason why I've stuck with 5e for so long. There's just so much dang homebrew. Largely, I'm thinking of classes (and subclasses) when I say this. Over the years I've collected a lot of it. A fair bit of it is garbage, to be sure. But that's the fun, right? Reading through it and judging balance; crunching the numbers to make sure the math for class features fits in line with the rest of the game so nobody outshines the others. Heck, I even like tweaking other people's homebrew if I feel like it needs a boost (or, more typically, a slight nerf) to make it more of an interesting choice. I like that there are so many reputable creators for it, too. Creators like MCDM, KibblesTasty, Mage Hand Press, and LaserLlama (just to name a few) hover over my table like benevolent spectors, exherting their influence in the form of all the cool stuff that I get to see my players go wild with. And they are not the only ones that I use. I also love that people like Jasmine Yang are out there (Hamund's Harvesting Handbook is like my top favorite supplement, not to mention her rules on naval combat) making stuff for people like me to throw onto the table.

Those three points (with the third point doing most of the heavy lifting) have kept me on 5e for a while now. But I still have my hesitations, and they mostly come in the form of 5.5e (or 5e '24, if you prefer) that has thrown a bit of a wrench in my plans. Before it felt like I was using 5e '14 as a foundation upon which I built everything else. I added some rules that superceeded the ones from WOTC, and left everything else. But now that 5e '24 has changed so much, I'm finding myself creating a whole new document of what's allowed from which edition, which rules to follow, spells to use, etc. and once I start to add in the homebrew I've collected (a large portion of it having been written for 5e '14), I'm starting to get the sense that I'm just making my own game at this point. Don't get me wrong, generally speaking I love the work. But it's also a TON of work and I didn't really want to get into outright game design, if I'm honest.

And all the while I'm wondering if there's just a better way? A better system? Ideally, it would be one that has the ability for me to port some of my favorite 5e homebrew classes to it, but I know that's a tall ask.

Or, should I just sally forth as I have been? Make no mistake, I'm enjoying myself to a degree, but I am also eager to get into the game.

I have a fairly long wishlist, so to speak, of things that I have been adding to 5e, but I'm hesitant to make this initial post longer than it needs to be by putting that in. Suffice to say, I want some more crunch. If you would, however, like specifics, just let me know and I can drop in my wishlist to give you a better idea of what I'm looking for.

Anyway, I hope this isn't too long (and I hope I've put this in the right place). If you have some advice for me, please let me know! Even if it's just encouragement that I'm on the right track for what I'm looking for, that would be enough.

Cheers,
Himbo_Jones

 

[dbm]

Have you seen Savage Pathfinder? It has class edges which being in aspects of D&D niches, while retaining all Savage Worlds tools (things like chases, mass combat, dramatic tasks). It has base fear rules in the core, and expanded fear rules in the Horror Companion if you want more emphasis on that aspect of play. And it has lots of third-party support too.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Stop me if you've heard this one before: I'm currently planning a game in 5e, but there are some holes in the system that I'm currently patching up with homebrew.

To keep this from turning into an essay on the minutiae of particular inclinations toward TTRPGs, I will just say that I like a fair bit of crunch in my games (martial combat maneuvers, weapon skills, robust crafting systems, professions the players can pick up during downtime, rules for raising and leading an army, heck even rules for characters going steadily mad from the horrors of the unknown), and have been gathering homebrew/building my own to compensate and it's all becoming... a lot, obviously. I don't mind "a lot", but I also don't want to be doing all of this work when there might just be a simpler answer in the form of a system that does what I am looking for.

Why do I stick with 5e, though? It's not like I haven't tried other systems. I've played a lot of AD&D 1e which has been a blast and has pushed me to use "gritty resting" and "safe haven" style rules in my 5e games. I've also played some Pathfinder 2e which has given me the inclination toward making homebrew abilities to sprinkle over my characters as rewards (I also learned to do this from Matt Colville, who suggested just taking class abilities from other editions and including them in your games). Beyond that, I've done Savage Worlds, some Vampire the Masquerade, and a smattering of other RPGs that I've mostly just read more than I've played.

In spite of all of this, there are a couple of reasons I'm stuck on 5e and why I defaulted to it when I began making this campaign:

• Bounded Accuracy. It's something that I really like and I sometimes struggle to articulate actually why. As much as I enjoy my players (or even as a player) getting a lot of new abilities (and it is certainly necessary), I tend to like it more when those abilities to be side-grades rather than upgrades. It's more interesting, in my opinion, to have more options than always a better option. I also like it when a lock is a lock. Sure, a character can get really good at picking locks, but they don't ever (in my opinion) become the god of picking locks. Similarly, I like being able to keep a goblin camp around well into the late game and have it still be somewhat of a threat (Tucker's Kobolds comes to mind here, but that's only if I'm feeling particularly sadistic).
• Character Classes. I just like them. I like it when a class has a niche that they fill. The tank can do tank stuff, the back like does the pew-pew but dies in two hits, and healers. I love healers. Playing them is dope for me and GMing for them is also a blast if only because it means I can really ratchet up the difficulty of encounters when I have a party with an efficient healer. It's just fun all around for me.
• Homebrew. This is the big one for me, honestly. And I do mean it's probably the #1 reason why I've stuck with 5e for so long. There's just so much dang homebrew. Largely, I'm thinking of classes (and subclasses) when I say this. Over the years I've collected a lot of it. A fair bit of it is garbage, to be sure. But that's the fun, right? Reading through it and judging balance; crunching the numbers to make sure the math for class features fits in line with the rest of the game so nobody outshines the others. Heck, I even like tweaking other people's homebrew if I feel like it needs a boost (or, more typically, a slight nerf) to make it more of an interesting choice. I like that there are so many reputable creators for it, too. Creators like MCDM, KibblesTasty, Mage Hand Press, and LaserLlama (just to name a few) hover over my table like benevolent spectors, exherting their influence in the form of all the cool stuff that I get to see my players go wild with. And they are not the only ones that I use. I also love that people like Jasmine Yang are out there (Hamund's Harvesting Handbook is like my top favorite supplement, not to mention her rules on naval combat) making stuff for people like me to throw onto the table.

Those three points (with the third point doing most of the heavy lifting) have kept me on 5e for a while now. But I still have my hesitations, and they mostly come in the form of 5.5e (or 5e '24, if you prefer) that has thrown a bit of a wrench in my plans. Before it felt like I was using 5e '14 as a foundation upon which I built everything else. I added some rules that superceeded the ones from WOTC, and left everything else. But now that 5e '24 has changed so much, I'm finding myself creating a whole new document of what's allowed from which edition, which rules to follow, spells to use, etc. and once I start to add in the homebrew I've collected (a large portion of it having been written for 5e '14), I'm starting to get the sense that I'm just making my own game at this point. Don't get me wrong, generally speaking I love the work. But it's also a TON of work and I didn't really want to get into outright game design, if I'm honest.

And all the while I'm wondering if there's just a better way? A better system? Ideally, it would be one that has the ability for me to port some of my favorite 5e homebrew classes to it, but I know that's a tall ask.

Or, should I just sally forth as I have been? Make no mistake, I'm enjoying myself to a degree, but I am also eager to get into the game.

I have a fairly long wishlist, so to speak, of things that I have been adding to 5e, but I'm hesitant to make this initial post longer than it needs to be by putting that in. Suffice to say, I want some more crunch. If you would, however, like specifics, just let me know and I can drop in my wishlist to give you a better idea of what I'm looking for.

Anyway, I hope this isn't too long (and I hope I've put this in the right place). If you have some advice for me, please let me know! Even if it's just encouragement that I'm on the right track for what I'm looking for, that would be enough.

Cheers,
- Himbo_Jones

Have you considered a 5e system base different from either if the ones presented by WotC? Level Up, produced by EN Publishing, is a 5e system that to my mind corrects a lot if issues and fills a lot of holes I see in WotC's 5e. There's a great forum right here on the site (as well as an active Discord), and more information is available here:

Home | Level Up

a5e.tools

It is honestly the best version of 5e I've ever seen.

 

[TwoSix]

Honestly, in terms of having a robust library of homebrew rules to use for a fairly crunchy game, as well as having more horizontal than vertical progression (new abilities, but not way more powerful abilities), you're not going to beat out 5e.

As someone who runs a fair amount of 5e and uses a lot of the same homebrew material you do, I would say just keep on using 5e 2014 as the base and if a player wants to use some '24 stuff, no real harm.

 

[GMMichael]

But now that 5e '24 has changed so much, I'm finding myself creating a whole new document of what's allowed from which edition, which rules to follow, spells to use, etc. and once I start to add in the homebrew I've collected (a large portion of it having been written for 5e '14), I'm starting to get the sense that I'm just making my own game at this point. Don't get me wrong, generally speaking I love the work. But it's also a TON of work and I didn't really want to get into outright game design, if I'm honest.

I'd hope that a new edition would make your homebrewing work easier instead of harder!

And all the while I'm wondering if there's just a better way? A better system? Ideally, it would be one that has the ability for me to port some of my favorite 5e homebrew classes to it, but I know that's a tall ask.

Yes, there's a better system. Maybe even an objectively better system. Which one fills that gap for you? I can't say. But if homebrewing a game becomes too much work (or "work" at all), it's time to change games or write your own.

 

[payn]

Im still rockin PF1 there is so much for it I never have a need (for long anyways). The only way it could be better is to shoehorn BA into it. Though, I have a good time playing E6 even.

 

[Piperken]

...And all the while I'm wondering if there's just a better way? A better system? Ideally, it would be one that has the ability for me to port some of my favorite 5e homebrew classes to it, but I know that's a tall ask.

Or, should I just sally forth as I have been? Make no mistake, I'm enjoying myself to a degree, but I am also eager to get into the game.

If you have some advice for me, please let me know! Even if it's just encouragement that I'm on the right track for what I'm looking for, that would be enough.

Cheers,
- Himbo_Jones

Micah already mentioned A5E, which is what I would've suggested initially, but I will be bold & suggest perusing Goblin Laws of Gaming (GLOG) to see if there is a version of it that might be inspiring for you?

It checks your homebrew & class boxes pretty well (there are hundreds of specialized GLOG classes people have created), however the base system may have less crunch than you desire. From what I gather though it is very hackable; hence mentioning seeking a version that better aligns with your wants in terms of design.

 

[Himbo_Jones]

Thank you all so much for your replies and suggestions! You've given me a lot to think about already~

Have you seen Savage Pathfinder? It has class edges which being in aspects of D&D niches, while retaining all Savage Worlds tools (things like chases, mss combat, dramatic tasks). It has base fear rules in the core, and expanded fear rules in the Horror Companion if you want more emphasis on that aspect of play. And it has lots of third-party support too.

So admittedly I haven't looked to much into Savage Pathfinder, but I do know of it. I quite like the Savage Worlds system in general for a number of reasons, so I'll give this a look as well and see if it fits what I'm looking for. Worst case scenario, I end up cannibalizing some of its design elements for my own homebrew.

Have you considered a 5e system base different from either if the ones presented by WotC? Level Up, produced by EN Publishing, is a 5e system that to my mind corrects a lot if issues and fills a lot of holes I see in WotC's 5e. There's a great forum right here on the site (as well as an active Discord), and more information is available here:

Home | Level Up

a5e.tools

It is honestly the best version of 5e I've ever seen.

I've also seen Level Up from a distance, but haven't taken the dive into it completely. This might be the push I need to do that. Just from a cursory glance of that forum I can see that some people are porting things from 2nd, 3rd, and 4th edition D&D into Level Up which gives me hope that I might be able to modulate that system with some of the homebrew classes that I have come to feel particularly fond of (Illrigger and Pugilist conversions, anyone?), so thank you for that suggestion!

Honestly, in terms of having a robust library of homebrew rules to use for a fairly crunchy game, as well as having more horizontal than vertical progression (new abilities, but not way more powerful abilities), you're not going to beat out 5e.

As someone who runs a fair amount of 5e and uses a lot of the same homebrew material you do, I would say just keep on using 5e 2014 as the base and if a player wants to use some '24 stuff, no real harm.

It's interesting how much 5e seems like a modular system without actually intending to be a modular system. That being said, there could be an argument that the "rulings over rules" philosophy is one that almost encourages modularity, but in a way that puts the labor of developing that largely on the player base. But that is a topic for another thread.

What I will say is that you've given me pause to look and see that maybe I'm overthinking the 5e '24 rules and need to view it as almost another homebrew where I can take what I like and leave what I don't while still using 5e '14 as a foundation. That "fits better" into my mind, if that makes any sense, so I appreciate it!

If I do end up sticking with 5e in the end, I'll have an easier go of it, I think.

Micah already mentioned A5E, which is what I would've suggested initially, but I will be bold & suggest perusing Goblin Laws of Gaming (GLOG) to see if there is a version of it that might be inspiring for you?

It checks your homebrew & class boxes pretty well (there are hundreds of specialized GLOG classes people have created), however the base system may have less crunch than you desire. From what I gather though it is very hackable; hence mentioning seeking a version that better aligns with your wants in terms of design.

That you have seconded checking out A5E has made me all the more interested in taking a look at it. But what I really am hype about is GLOG. I have never heard of it before and, in my very limited google searching before writing up this reply, I can tell that it would be quite a rabbit hole to go down when I have the time. I'm absolutely going to check this out and see if it scratches that itch for me.

Thank you all again for the help! I will look at all of these and I am also so excited to see who else might chime in with more suggestions. 2024 was my year of branching out into a bunch of other TTRPGs and I have since come to learn that there are not just dozens, but hundreds upon hundreds of them out there.

I can't wait to learn of more!

 

[Micah Sweet]

Thank you all so much for your replies and suggestions! You've given me a lot to think about already~


So admittedly I haven't looked to much into Savage Pathfinder, but I do know of it. I quite like the Savage Worlds system in general for a number of reasons, so I'll give this a look as well and see if it fits what I'm looking for. Worst case scenario, I end up cannibalizing some of its design elements for my own homebrew.


I've also seen Level Up from a distance, but haven't taken the dive into it completely. This might be the push I need to do that. Just from a cursory glance of that forum I can see that some people are porting things from 2nd, 3rd, and 4th edition D&D into Level Up which gives me hope that I might be able to modulate that system with some of the homebrew classes that I have come to feel particularly fond of (Illrigger and Pugilist conversions, anyone?), so thank you for that suggestion!


It's interesting how much 5e seems like a modular system without actually intending to be a modular system. That being said, there could be an argument that the "rulings over rules" philosophy is one that almost encourages modularity, but in a way that puts the labor of developing that largely on the player base. But that is a topic for another thread.

What I will say is that you've given me pause to look and see that maybe I'm overthinking the 5e '24 rules and need to view it as almost another homebrew where I can take what I like and leave what I don't while still using 5e '14 as a foundation. That "fits better" into my mind, if that makes any sense, so I appreciate it!

If I do end up sticking with 5e in the end, I'll have an easier go of it, I think.


That you have seconded checking out A5E has made me all the more interested in taking a look at it. But what I really am hype about is GLOG. I have never heard of it before and, in my very limited google searching before writing up this reply, I can tell that it would be quite a rabbit hole to go down when I have the time. I'm absolutely going to check this out and see if it scratches that itch for me.

Thank you all again for the help! I will look at all of these and I am also so excited to see who else might chime in with more suggestions. 2024 was my year of branching out into a bunch of other TTRPGs and I have since come to learn that there are not just dozens, but hundreds upon hundreds of them out there.

I can't wait to learn of more!

A5e is IMO quite amenable to homebrew. I have a lot of material from other versions of 5e and other editions of D&D I've converted to Level Up.

 

[dbm]

So admittedly I haven't looked to much into Savage Pathfinder, but I do know of it. I quite like the Savage Worlds system in general for a number of reasons, so I'll give this a look as well and see if it fits what I'm looking for. Worst case scenario, I end up cannibalizing some of its design elements for my own homebrew.

We’ve been playing a Forgotten Realms game for over a year which converted from 5e to Savage Pathfinder as our GM got a bit tired of 5e monsters in particular. It’s great fun.

One of the subtle differences between Savage Worlds and D&D in general is that D&D has a resource attrition model while SWADE does not. The practical implication of this is that D&D is designed to support a series of (usually incrementally more challenging) encounters to burn off resources so that the later fights are more dramatic and challenging, but the initial counters are really just speed bumps and resource sinks. Since SWADE doesn’t have the model built in (especially wound levels versus hit points) you don’t need a lot of small fights to make the big fights interesting. The impact of this is that every fight can be an interesting one in SWADE (and conversely, running too many small fights using the full combat system will result in random character death at some point due to the exploding dice*). We tend to prefer games where there are a smaller number of significant battles, but if you want to run games with lots of combats chained together like a classic dungeon delve this can be tricky. One to be aware of when choosing.

* The solution to this is to use the Dangerous Quick Encounter rules to replace the ‘speed bump’ combats. Use these when success is basically guaranteed and the question is more ‘at what cost?’