NPC Deception/Persuasion and player agency

[payn]

 

[Krachek]

A spell « like » dominate person can override PC agency.
What power source is a spell like ability? Magic, psionic, high charisma, deception skills, that depends on the adventure Fluf and style.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Because normal words simply cannot remove choice from anyone. Not you. Not me. Not PCs. We always have a choice, even if it's a bad one.

My concern, as I've mentioned before, is that leaving the choice entirely up to the player strongly encourages decisions that favor the PC over those that might make more sense given the situation. It need not even be a conscious decision to do so.

 

[Maxperson]

My concern, as I've mentioned before, is that leaving the choice entirely up to the player strongly encourages decisions that favor the PC over those that might make more sense given the situation. It need not even be a conscious decision to do so.

That depends on your players. Mine don't do that. Roleplaying their characters is the most important thing. Not gaming the system.

 

[Micah Sweet]

That depends on your players. Mine don't do that. Roleplaying their characters is the most important thing. Not gaming the system.

Then IMO you have a rare group if that never comes up. Good for you.

 

[Wolfpack48]

My concern, as I've mentioned before, is that leaving the choice entirely up to the player strongly encourages decisions that favor the PC over those that might make more sense given the situation. It need not even be a conscious decision to do so.

“The fear spell enrages me and makes me attack every enemy in sight.”

 

[Micah Sweet]

“The fear spell enrages me and makes me attack every enemy in sight.”

Wouldn't being that enraged lead to a less discriminatory choice of target?

 

[Wolfpack48]

Wouldn't being that enraged lead to a less discriminatory choice of target?

Hey I get to determine how fear affects me, right? Right??

 

[Maxperson]

To me, it would be the words, if they were deceiving you into believing that they would go through with it, but had no actual intention of going through with it.

It's still my choice to believe someone or not.

Agreed. However, even self defense courses, they tell people in such situations to just give them the money, jewelry, etc. as material things are not worth risking their life.

I agree. When he told me that, I thought it was a dumb decision. It's still a choice, though. The gun and words didn't make it for him.

Yep. and apparently the person with the gun had no intention of following through with violence. Maybe, your friend was good at reading the person (sense motive vs deception).

This is the real world and all of that plays into our choice to believe or not.

What bothers me the most is that there can be tons clues in the game that the guy isn't trustworthy and you should never believe him, but if he mind control persuasions me, I'll trust him. That's a reality break of the 1st order. It's a nonsensical result. The player should ultimately make that decision. A successful roll on one side or the other can influence the player, but it can't make his decision for him. At least it shouldn't.

I've walked out of a game where that sort of thing was happening.

When it comes to rpgs, most of the 100+ games I have encountered over the years have combat skills, athletic skills, knowledge skills, interaction skills, etc. which reflect the character's abilities not the player's abilities. Uncertain outcomes are resolved with die rolls-typically with opposed rolls (or saving throws) when two characters are in opposition (including combat, athletics competition, etc). I, therefore, don't see a reason why social interaction outcomes between characters should be any different. Ymmv.
edit: I do, however, also like mechanics that allow a resource for a bonus for players to alter roll, reward players for going along with failed social outcome, and/or allow GM to spend a resource to compel players to go along with failed social outcome.

Opposed mechanics should have influence, but should not dictate social situations.

 

[Maxperson]

Then IMO you have a rare group if that never comes up. Good for you.

Multiple groups. Three groups(two I played in, one I DM) all play that way. The last three I've gotten into.