D&D General Renamed Thread: "The Illusion of Agency"

Yeah there are just so many different ways to go here. I don't feel like we're at the point where we can usually distinguish between different approaches.

FWIW, I do think "stealthy assassination" (also mentioned upthread) is a tricky thing in D&D, and RPGs in general. It's a movie and video game trope that seems to be problematic to implement in roleplaying games.

4e did it great. Use the stealth mechanics, make an attack roll and then you "minionize them" so they die in one hit. Generally not used vs elite/solo monsters, but lets you take out mooks etc using the same resolution mechanics.

PBTAs handle it with a "if there's no way for the opposition to defend themselves from your fictional position, deal your damage/inflict harm/whatever the system uses to mark that [maybe even trigger a move that lets you 1hit kill]." FITD also handles it well using its conflict resolution mechanics.
 

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Ok, let’s go with the following possibilities:

1. The PCs want to take out all the goblin guards stealthily.

2. The PCs want to smooth talk their way past the two guards at the cave entrance.

I realize I’m still asking you to play the part of players and DM on these… if you want me to be more specific on the player angle in either/both scenarios, let me know.
You still haven't told us what the party has in it other than a scout of some sort and a 5th+-level mage.
 

FWIW, I do think "stealthy assassination" (also mentioned upthread) is a tricky thing in D&D, and RPGs in general. It's a movie and video game trope that seems to be problematic to implement in roleplaying games.
Truth be told, I've never really had a problem implementing it in our 1e-adjacent system. It's not an every-session thing, but it certainly happens (or tries to happen) reasonably regularly.

In this example, if a Thief (or better yet, Assassin) wants to knock off a Goblin it'd be a stealth ("move silently") roll followed if necessary by a hiding ("hide in shadows") roll if the approaching sneaks could be observed, followed by a to-hit roll with big bonuses if things have gone well so far. On a hit, auto-kill for the Assassin and very likely a straight kill for the Thief.

In general I'm not quite as harsh as is RAW 1e on Thief skills at low levels so, depending on the specific situation, their odds of getting close enough to strike could be fairly good. In the example given we already know the scout has had a look around and not been noticed, establishing that these Goblins aren't exactly paragons of watchfulness. :)
 

So I want to be clear here: "mother may I" is like, a formal categorization of rule / ability interaction. If the rules governing an interaction require the DM to thumbs up its use, it's categorically "mother may I." WOTC designers have used it repeatedly in how they talk about certain mechanics! I can't be denigrating something that the literal designers of the game have used to talk about tradeoffs.

That is not true. Just sayin'.

Edit, to quote Crawford (23:32): "mother may I mechanics are something that is on your character sheet that only works if the DM cooperates with you in its execution."

Right. I'm not talking about things on the character sheet. If you have an ability that says, "Target must make a DC 16 Wisdom saving throw or they will agree to whatever you say," then I'm not going to say, "Well, not in this case, sorry."

I'm talking about players improvising actions that are not explicitly listed on the character sheet.

Moving away from sheet mechanics to conflict resolution models with no rules whatsoever is moving the entire interaction method into "mother may I" realm. Arguably this is what OSR lives on, they just call them "rulings" and presuppose impartiality on the GM's side.

It's not "no rules whatsoever." Christ I don't know how many times I have to spell that out. But it's also not reaching for the dice every time a player declares an action....unless the rules say that you're supposed to do that. (For example, making a weapon attack.)

I never tell my players "you can't do that" or "your character wouldn't do that" or "justify why you would do that." They never, ever have to ask my permission to do anything. And although new players (either new to the game or new to my talbe) sometimes preface actions with "Can I....?" they soon stop doing that.

What I do, on the other hand, is tell them if a roll will be required, and what kind of roll they will have to make, and what will happen if they don't succeed. Then it is entirely up to them to decide if they want to try.

And, yes, sometimes I say, "Look, that's going to fail. You are not going to persuade the King to resign and hand you the crown."

But they are always free to try.

If we're going to apply "Mother, May I?" to anything, it should be to the strict anti-metagaming attitude that actions that must be justified to the rest of the table. It's the attitude that doesn't allow 1st level characters to use fire on trolls. Or won't let the party member who has wandered off come running back when combat starts. "Your character wouldn't do that."
 

I don't even know what you're talking about any more dude. "Mother may I" is a design shorthand used to refer to cases in TTRPG play where the player must look to the GM for permission to do something based on how its either phrased or the game rules dictate (eg: in 5e.2014, "players never declare skill usage). Crawford is using it to talk about mechanics he designed into 5e, and how he's trying to reduce the reliance on that for core class features. I'm not denigrating your DMing style or like the game or anything when I'm using the same vernacular as teh designers to capture a specific case of play.

The more you're talking about reducing the player's reliance on game granted mechanics, the more you're in the realm of "rulings not rules" / "DM fiat" / "Mother may I the game." This is not a judgement, it's just a reflection that in games with no formalized Dm bounds if the players can't point to something in the rules or an expectation they can do something, they're just looking to you for conversational permission. And again, everything I hear from you here is just "Im playing OSR style in 5e."

So is your core contention really: "how do I adjudicate stakes and significant consequences for failure in a system that has nothing built in for that?"
 

It is tragic to me that this argument conflates "mechanics" with "rolling dice to resolve uncertainty." <snip snip>

My gameplay needs for a secret door are that (a) not everyone notices it, but (b) there's a chance for anyone to notice it, and (c) I want players to have "observant" characters who are better at noticing it. I want to be able to say, "Llyrd the Elven Ranger notices the secret door with their keen eyes."
Core problem: Your foregoing argument and your personal requests conflict, within the context of D&D and its relatives. That is, in D&D, the only mechanic that inserts uncertainty involves the rolling of dice. One can argue that the intersection of uncertain player intent and uncertain DM response is another "mechanic" that inserts uncertainty, but I don't think that's adequate to meet your gameplay needs here. I'll assume your (a) condition is actually slightly softer than the exact words (that is, "there's a chance for everyone to not notice it"), since as phrased, your requirement is broken if it just so happens that randomness permitted the rare situation that everyone notices it, especially if it just so happens that everyone in the party is an "observant" character (e.g. not just an elven ranger, but also an elven wizard, an elven swordmage, etc.)

So, either we need to create a new mechanic that inserts uncertainty upon request, or we need to accept some kind of not-entirely-uncertain way to add obstacles to success in this context, or we need to accept that "rolling dice to resolve uncertainty" is the only (in-D&D) method to achieve this end.

Dungeon World, the system I run, achieves this with the third option and changes the nature of the situation. That is, if there's legitimately nothing to find, then the player doing the actions that correspond to Discern Realities will simply be told that their search turns up nothing, without needing to invoke the rules at all. This reflects...not so much a "principle" (which has a formal definition in PbtA games), as a guiding philosophy: do not roll unless success and failure are both interesting outcomes. If success is impossible/implausible and failure isn't interesting, don't bother with taking up time by rolling, just tell them. If success is possible and plausible, and failure has no meaning/impact, just let the success happen--especially if the success is interesting. Finally, if both success and failure are interesting, include degrees of success.

D&D struggles with degrees-of-success because its roll mechanics are naturally binary. PF2e tries to break out of this by defining critical results (success or failure) as being above/below the target number by some amount. Knowledge checks in D&D have sometimes used something like this, where there isn't one DC but 3+, and the players get the sum of all the best results they meet or beat. Dungeon World has it naturally built-in.

Finally, failure on knowledge- or perception-related skills is often a Problem for D&D-alikes, because the players know not to trust a result that came from rolling a nat 1. It's not explicitly stated, but my interpretation of how to fix this in DW is that, when the players fail a Discern Realities roll, I make them ask any one question--and the answer will be one they won't like. Effectively, something is always learned, but on a failure the thing you learn is a bad fact that you wish wasn't true.

One option, which could theoretically aid with all of this stuff but would be non-trivial to implement, would be to include a deck of cards as an additional/alternative source of randomness. I would actually recommend a tarot deck with some of the cards removed. For example, you could keep just the major arcana, and have each with defined impacts; you could even count whether the card is drawn reversed or not. Invoke the deck when uncertainty is needed but the outcome needs to be more specific/textured than what a die roll can produce.

If we want to eliminate the d20 roll, and still provide players the ability to make their character "more observant than others," what mechanic creates that feeling?

Genuinely curious, because I think a d20 roll to find information is actually pretty kludgy and unsatisfying, but I don't have a great replacement for it, either. I wonder what games based on this kind of mechanic do (detective games, etc.).
D&D-alikes struggle with this, but it isn't just this. How would one provide players the ability to make their character "more educated than others" without involving dice? What about folks who are more discerning, meaning, folks who have better judgment about the correct choice to make? Folks who are more compelling to other people? Etc.

"Passive" checks are one solution, but that's basically just an invisible d20 roll. Another option could be using a character's raw ability score, with some modifiers intended to recognize traits (like "elven" and "ranger") that should reasonably improve that thing. A third is more evinced by 4e, though 5e technically also permits it: trained vs untrained matters, and a trained person can sometimes simply do things an untrained person can't, or can just succeed at something that an untrained person would struggle to do.

Outside of that, there's...really not much D&D offers in this arena, especially 5e, because of the emphasis on "DM Says."
 

Core problem: Your foregoing argument and your personal requests conflict, within the context of D&D and its relatives. That is, in D&D, the only mechanic that inserts uncertainty involves the rolling of dice. One can argue that the intersection of uncertain player intent and uncertain DM response is another "mechanic" that inserts uncertainty, but I don't think that's adequate to meet your gameplay needs here. I'll assume your (a) condition is actually slightly softer than the exact words (that is, "there's a chance for everyone to not notice it"), since as phrased, your requirement is broken if it just so happens that randomness permitted the rare situation that everyone notices it, especially if it just so happens that everyone in the party is an "observant" character (e.g. not just an elven ranger, but also an elven wizard, an elven swordmage, etc.)

So, either we need to create a new mechanic that inserts uncertainty upon request, or we need to accept some kind of not-entirely-uncertain way to add obstacles to success in this context, or we need to accept that "rolling dice to resolve uncertainty" is the only (in-D&D) method to achieve this end.

Dungeon World, the system I run, achieves this with the third option and changes the nature of the situation. That is, if there's legitimately nothing to find, then the player doing the actions that correspond to Discern Realities will simply be told that their search turns up nothing, without needing to invoke the rules at all. This reflects...not so much a "principle" (which has a formal definition in PbtA games), as a guiding philosophy: do not roll unless success and failure are both interesting outcomes. If success is impossible/implausible and failure isn't interesting, don't bother with taking up time by rolling, just tell them. If success is possible and plausible, and failure has no meaning/impact, just let the success happen--especially if the success is interesting. Finally, if both success and failure are interesting, include degrees of success.

D&D struggles with degrees-of-success because its roll mechanics are naturally binary. PF2e tries to break out of this by defining critical results (success or failure) as being above/below the target number by some amount. Knowledge checks in D&D have sometimes used something like this, where there isn't one DC but 3+, and the players get the sum of all the best results they meet or beat. Dungeon World has it naturally built-in.

Finally, failure on knowledge- or perception-related skills is often a Problem for D&D-alikes, because the players know not to trust a result that came from rolling a nat 1. It's not explicitly stated, but my interpretation of how to fix this in DW is that, when the players fail a Discern Realities roll, I make them ask any one question--and the answer will be one they won't like. Effectively, something is always learned, but on a failure the thing you learn is a bad fact that you wish wasn't true.

One option, which could theoretically aid with all of this stuff but would be non-trivial to implement, would be to include a deck of cards as an additional/alternative source of randomness. I would actually recommend a tarot deck with some of the cards removed. For example, you could keep just the major arcana, and have each with defined impacts; you could even count whether the card is drawn reversed or not. Invoke the deck when uncertainty is needed but the outcome needs to be more specific/textured than what a die roll can produce.


D&D-alikes struggle with this, but it isn't just this. How would one provide players the ability to make their character "more educated than others" without involving dice? What about folks who are more discerning, meaning, folks who have better judgment about the correct choice to make? Folks who are more compelling to other people? Etc.

"Passive" checks are one solution, but that's basically just an invisible d20 roll. Another option could be using a character's raw ability score, with some modifiers intended to recognize traits (like "elven" and "ranger") that should reasonably improve that thing. A third is more evinced by 4e, though 5e technically also permits it: trained vs untrained matters, and a trained person can sometimes simply do things an untrained person can't, or can just succeed at something that an untrained person would struggle to do.

Outside of that, there's...really not much D&D offers in this arena, especially 5e, because of the emphasis on "DM Says."

Quick side note: your 6- Discern Realities thing is just using the GM move “turn their move back on them.” Great way to impel the game forward: “hell yeah there’s something here, and you’ll hate how you find out or what it is.”
 

I don't even know what you're talking about any more dude. "Mother may I" is a design shorthand used to refer to cases in TTRPG play where the player must look to the GM for permission to do something based on how its either phrased or the game rules dictate (eg: in 5e.2014, "players never declare skill usage). Crawford is using it to talk about mechanics he designed into 5e, and how he's trying to reduce the reliance on that for core class features. I'm not denigrating your DMing style or like the game or anything when I'm using the same vernacular as teh designers to capture a specific case of play.

The more you're talking about reducing the player's reliance on game granted mechanics, the more you're in the realm of "rulings not rules" / "DM fiat" / "Mother may I the game." This is not a judgement, it's just a reflection that in games with no formalized Dm bounds if the players can't point to something in the rules or an expectation they can do something, they're just looking to you for conversational permission. And again, everything I hear from you here is just "Im playing OSR style in 5e."

Yeah, I don't know what to say either. You're saying that "Mother, May I?" is NOT a loaded pejorative, but it's a neutral term which means "anything not strictly adjudicated by defined rules"?

Um, no.

So is your core contention really: "how do I adjudicate stakes and significant consequences for failure in a system that has nothing built in for that?"

No, it's how do I apply the principle of clearly defined goal and approach, with consequences of failure, in situations like "Does the Character notice without trying?" or "Do I know how to keep trolls from regenerating?"
 
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Which is why it was a little bit of a head-scratcher for me to be told that the approach I'm describing makes martials even worse. At my table, the abilities written on your character sheet don't matter as much as your ability to think up creative solutions. (And I can play that straight or whacky, depending on the mood of the table.)
I'm not sure if I would say "worse," but IME I don't necessarily think that it fundamentally solves anything because all else being equal, nothing fundamentally changes. The barbarian may benefit from your more open approach but so does the mage. It feels a bit like rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic. The core problem persists.

If we're going to apply "Mother, May I?" to anything, it should be to the strict anti-metagaming attitude that actions that must be justified to the rest of the table. It's the attitude that doesn't allow 1st level characters to use fire on trolls. Or won't let the party member who has wandered off come running back when combat starts. "Your character wouldn't do that."
I'm honestly not sure what you are talking about. I would not describe table-based rulings as being motivated by a "strict anti-metagaming attitude" or having anything to do with "Mother, May I?" It generally derives from a desire to shift rulings from the sole purview of the GM to the collective table of game participants, even if the GM remains the final arbiter. For example, this is an attitude that one sees in how the rules of games like Fate and Fabula Ultima are written.
 


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