NPC Deception/Persuasion and player agency

[FrogReaver]

I think it is. We have had plenty of talk about agency. Some people are fine with less, and some people desire it on specific areas and not so much in others. To me the agency to decide the desires and goals of my character is central. If some people don't feel the same way, then that's their prerogative.

But ultimately the core play loop of RPG is the GM presenting the situation and the players deciding what their characters want to do, then the GM describing how the situation is altered by what the character does. If we insert mechanics that decide what the characters want instead of the players deciding it, then it sorta makes the players unnecessary.

Right. My point was that your stated objection was a too generic ‘it limits player agency’ when it should have been more what you state above, ‘it limits player agency in this particular way’.

Then if ‘this particular way’ is just a personal preference, that usually ends up as an agree to disagree. However, if alot, but not necessarily all people share a similar preference to yours, then that likely makes for a much more interesting discussion. I think they probably do, but I don’t have anything solid to base that on besides gut feels.

 

[TwoSix]

But certainly NPCs being able to use persuasion on PCs must mean that the NPC can convince the PC that doing X is a good idea? Like how could it not? A charismatic necromancer says: "Bring me the red ruby of doom, I can use it to save your sick mother!" and rolls super high on persuasion. Doesn't it now become PCs "want" to bring the red ruby of doom to the necromancer? Then this want potentially dictates very long series of actions, as the PC takes steps to pursue the ruby.

A lot to unpack here. Are the necromancer, the red ruby, and the sick mother already in play elements? What sort of relationship does my character have with all three?

If saving my sick mother through supernatural means was part of my play agenda, then sure, I could accept a powerful necromancer convincing my PC that the red ruby could cure her. I would certainly imagine that it's not a simple fetch quest, and the relative trust my character puts in the necromancer would be something tested in play to come. If my character goal is "help save my sick mother", then seeing what lengths my character will go to do that is exactly what I want to see challenges on in game.

 

[Xamnam]

But certainly NPCs being able to use persuasion on PCs must mean that the NPC can convince the PC that doing X is a good idea? Like how could it not? A charismatic necromancer says: "Bring me the red ruby of doom, I can use it to save your sick mother!" and rolls super high on persuasion. Doesn't it now become PCs "want" to bring the red ruby of doom to the necromancer? Then this want potentially dictates very long series of actions, as the PC takes steps to pursue the ruby.

I think all that forceful social mechanics demand is that the PC believes the necromancer and/or the Red Ruby of Doom is indeed capable of doing that. So sure, if their focus is saving their mother above all else, this might sway them to that course of action. They might also seek out the RRoD to see if they can perhaps learn this magic themselves, or find another suitably powerful occultist. Or they might decide that no matter how much they want to heal their mother, it is not worth the potential cost of helping the necromancer. Or that their mother would not want them to make that trade, and couldn't stomach their disapproval.

 

[Bill Zebub]

But certainly NPCs being able to use persuasion on PCs must mean that the NPC can convince the PC that doing X is a good idea? Like how could it not? A charismatic necromancer says: "Bring me the red ruby of doom, I can use it to save your sick mother!" and rolls super high on persuasion. Doesn't it now become PCs "want" to bring the red ruby of doom to the necromancer? Then this want potentially dictates very long series of actions, as the PC takes steps to pursue the ruby.

Not in my game. It means that the necromancer was very, very persuasive. It's a setting detail, no different from describing a very, very creepy cave entrance. Let the player do what they will with it. There are a million reasons the players might encounter a very, very persuasive NPC (or a very, very creepy cave entrance) but still do something surprising or even irrational.

And with that context, I wouldn't even roll. What purpose does it serve, unless the GM really can't decide how persuasive (or how creepy) the setting is.

EDIT: And if the players care about saving their sick mother, or if they don't, do we really need to mechanically determine if they are persuaded?

 

[Bill Zebub]

Or that their mother would not want them to make that trade, and couldn't stomach their disapproval.

Awesome.

"Why aren't you roleplaying as if you were persuaded?"
"Oh, I am persuaded! But I know my mother would disapprove of me risking my life for her sake."

 

[Xamnam]

Awesome.

"Why aren't you roleplaying as if you were persuaded?"
"Oh, I am persuaded! But I know my mother would disapprove of me risking my life for her sake."

Now there's where the real effective social mechanics come in. Tell me my mom wants me to not do something, and see how hard it is for me to ignore that.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Not in my game. It means that the necromancer was very, very persuasive. It's a setting detail, no different from describing a very, very creepy cave entrance. Let the player do what they will with it. There are a million reasons the players might encounter a very, very persuasive NPC (or a very, very creepy cave entrance) but still do something surprising or even irrational.

And with that context, I wouldn't even roll. What purpose does it serve, unless the GM really can't decide how persuasive (or how creepy) the setting is.

EDIT: And if the players care about saving their sick mother, or if they don't, do we really need to mechanically determine if they are persuaded?

Yes, we are in agreement.

 

[payn]

Awesome.

"Why aren't you roleplaying as if you were persuaded?"
"Oh, I am persuaded! But I know my mother would disapprove of me risking my life for her sake."

"but keeping her alive anyways might make the disapproval worth living with..."

 

[Bill Zebub]

Now there's where the real effective social mechanics come in. Tell me my mom wants me to not do something, and see how hard it is for me to ignore that.

And I would say that since the mother is an NPC, if the DM wants her to chime in that's totally fair game.

 

[Bill Zebub]

"but keeping her alive anyways might make the disapproval worth living with..."

Right!!! Literally ANY decision-making train of thought can be justified within the fiction. So there's no point dictating it to the player.