The D&D 4th edition Rennaissaince: A look into the history of the edition, its flaws and its merits

[mamba]

You admitting your first lie or not doesn't matter, I already proved that you lied by directly quoting you, buddy. The guy who has been unable to provide evidence for his assertion calls me obnoxious, now that is funny

You have not shown any lie since there wasn't any, you continuing to be obnoxious does not change that. You also have only shown that you have zero data and nothing at all that refutes my claim. We are done here

 

[rhythmsoundmotion]

Both sides have anecdotal evidence though, so? Just for the record, you're aware that the guy who started demanding hard data while not providing any himself was mamba right?

Pathfinder Never Outsold 4E D&D (ICYMI)

The myth that Paizo's Pathfinder outsold Dungeons & Dragons 4E endures, but it is a myth worth slaying.

alphastream.org

“4E was released in June of 2008, with stronger presales and opening sales than 3E, according to both anecdotal gaming store data and Wizards of the Coast (EN World has several articles on this).” This is a weaker claim than 4e outsold 3e which you claim. And the article makes pains to show how anecdotal the numbers are.

I personally don’t have any horses in this race. But arguments made about 4e and 3e sales cannot be made by anyone outside of Hasbro without being anecdotal and rough estimates.

 

[Tigris]

The argument over 4E's relative popularity or profitability seems pointless so many years later. It's more useful to debate the merits of its design with relation to modern D&D.

For example, I was kind of excited by the possibility of the return of the bloodied condition and associated effects with 2024, but it seems they have pulled back on that. Too bad. A5E uses it to good effect with some monsters.

Well 4E is still a lot more modern D&D than 5.24 5.24 was an improvement over 5 and used some more modern gamedesign, but it is still much closer to old gamedesign than 4E.


Also at this point D&D will most likely again for 10 years do no changes ( just adding some subclasses). The changes just happened:

• 5.24 uses now weapon effects for martials which are similar to the 4E at wills.
• 5.24 does some streamlining of the classes to make the class structure more similar to each other because that makes it better to learn for people and to balance etc. (like 4E where it was critizied as "all classes are the same).
• 5.24 gave the fighter a utility use for second wind mirroring the martial rituals from 4E
• 5.24 now tells people (from what I heard) that default starting level is level 3 (level 1 and 2 are only tutorials for beginners). Which is pretty much the same powerlevel as 4E has at level 1. Removing the boring and way too deadly levels 1 and 2
• 5.24 now makes the DMG better like an actual DMG similar to the 4E DMG which is overall still one of the best

Else I cant really remember much, but I also didnt look at all class features etc.


4E gamedesign is much better reflected in things like Beacon or the still work in progress Wyrdwood Wand.

 

[Chemo]

You have nit shown any lie since there wasn't any, you continuing to b e obnoxious does not change that. You also have only shown that you have zero data and nothing at all that refutes my claim. We are done here

Yes, I did. You saying otherwise will not change the facts,

it was the worst selling edition with sales falling off a cliff pretty soon, resulting in a rush to first fix things (Essentials) and soon after a new edition to move on from 4e after sales could not be resuscitated

You claimed this and have been unable to prove it when challenged yet you kept repeating it, so yes, you have lied, multiple times. We're done? Well you can stop responding to me whenever you want But any time you repeat your lies I'll call you on your BS again.

 

[Chemo]

Pathfinder Never Outsold 4E D&D (ICYMI)

The myth that Paizo's Pathfinder outsold Dungeons & Dragons 4E endures, but it is a myth worth slaying.

alphastream.org

“4E was released in June of 2008, with stronger presales and opening sales than 3E, according to both anecdotal gaming store data and Wizards of the Coast (EN World has several articles on this).” This is a weaker claim than 4e outsold 3e which you claim. And the article makes pains to show how anecdotal the numbers are.

Mmmm, what? When did I claim that 4e outsold 3e? I couldn't care less whether 3e sold more than 4e did or not lol. I know 5e has sold tons of copies and I have no intention of playing it. 4e could have sold a couple dozen copies and it would still be my favourite and the one I play to this day. What grinds my gears are 4e haters claiming something that isn't true as fact.

I personally don’t have any horses in this race. But arguments made about 4e and 3e sales cannot be made by anyone outside of Hasbro without being anecdotal and rough estimates.

Agreed.

 

[rhythmsoundmotion]

Wyrdwood Wand by Candy Hammer Games

Wizardry and roleplaying! A fantasy game and campaign setting focusing on tactical team combat.

candyhammer.itch.io

Wyrdwood Wand looks cool! How closely does it use the 4e ideas?

 

[Alzrius]

That is one I have never heard before.

Riggs actually mentioned that before, albeit very briefly, in a late-July interview leading up to Gen Con last year (33:09 for those who can't play the embedded video):

 

[mamba]

You claimed this and have been unable to prove it when challenged yet you kept repeating it, so yes, you have lied

that is not how lying works, at the very best you have shown me being mistaken, but even that would need you to show the contrary, which you haven’t. All you have done is show that we do not have hard numbers, something I never disagreed with.

Didn’t realize that you are so delusional that you even dispute the steep drop off…

 

[Chemo]

that is not how lying works, at the very best you have shown me being mistaken, but even that would need you to show the contrary, which you haven’t. All you have done is show that we do not have hard numbers, something I never disagreed with.

Didn’t realize that you are so delusional that you even dispute the steep drop off…

If you had claimed it once and rectified when challenged, I wouldn't have said you lied. But you didn't, you kept repeating the same BS after being unable to back up your claim. So, yes, you have lied, continously, in this thread.

I thought you were done with me though, what happened? You can't even be consistent from one post to the next

 

[mamba]

If you had claimed it once and rectified when challenged, I wouldn't have said you lied. But you didn't, you kept repeating the same BS after being unable to back up your claim. So, yes, you have lied, continously, in this thread.

yeah, that is still not how lying works, all you have done is show that I do not keep a handy link for every claim I make, just like everyone else. Good job