D&D General Ray Winninger on 5e’s success, product cadence, the OGL, and more.

[Dire Bare]

It's been gone over a lot here in the past. But in short, the essence of horror is a sense of powerlessness. You have to cut so much away from 5E to accomplish that, you're basically playing a new game at that point. You're better off, IMO, just going with a system designed around delivering that experience, of which there are plenty of good choices.

1st level and tone, atmosphere . . .

I had my players running scared with twig blights when I ran the Sunless Citadel back in the early days of 3E. Granted, we weren't playing a horror campaign, but that adventure had plenty of horror scenes. Fun times.

I can't remember the sequel, but the one with the "hobyas" also managed to freak out my players. I would just randomly tell them, in the dark woods, you hear the cry, "hobya" . . . .

You also need players willing to give in to the horror.

Of course, the higher they advance in level, the harder it gets. But with the right DM and the right players, totally possible.

 

[billd91]

They certainly hit the technical definition of a 2024 release. But don’t you feel it could have been…more?

In 2014, it was a year long celebration of 40 years that included releasing new printings of the 1e, 2e, and 3e core books, the renewal of PDF sales for out-of-print products, and the release of all three core books along with a starter set and the first part of a 15 level adventure path.

In 2024, there was Eve of Ruin early in the year, and then PHBs in August, and DMGs in October. MM still not out yet. No starter set, no launch adventure, no SRD. To me, at least, it feels like a missed opportunity for the 50th anniversary.

We also got Quests from the Infinite Staircase and The Making of Original D&D. Plus, there were a variety of convention events and appearances.
I understand some people think a 50th anniversary could come with more pomp and circumstance. But even if the MM is a month into 2025, we DO have a 50th anniversary set of core books that are pretty stunning and incorporate some decent quality of life improvements. And just as my 10 year old 5e.2014 MM was falling apart…

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Of course, the higher they advance in level, the harder it gets. But with the right DM and the right players, totally possible.

Right, so it's possible with the right DM, the right players, narrow bands of play and often some modified rules.

Alternately, one could just play a horror RPG that doesn't require having all the stars align to make the experience work.

D&D is really good at delivering a heroic fantasy experience. It's not a criticism that it's not as good at other genres as games designed around those genres are.

 

[Von Ether]

A few times on EN World I’ve seen people asking for both more products per year from WOTC and deeper catalogs around one world, like a bunch of Eberron products or a bunch of Spelljammer products. I think Ray clarifies the difficulty with those ideas when it comes from WOTC’s business. My feeling is that we’re better served looking for more products and deeper products from other publishers who can focus and make a business on these types of products.

I feel that pain from years of doing community content. You hear a cry for adventures, but the unspoken words are "adventures that I haven't already run, that personally intrigue me, and I feel like buying when I get around to it."

Selling Adventures are like selling ice cream, really! Lots of GMs want them but they are all looking for different flavors. The only way to make it work is for you to have a variety to offer. Unlike ice cream, you can't just swap out a ingredient or two and make new ice cream just as fast as you can the first one.

 

[WinningerR]

Ray, given the above, do you have any insight as to the Starter Set situation? I.e., why a new starter set was released 2 years before the new rules, and yet another one planned for release a year after the new rules, rather than having one primed and ready to release with the new rules?

We were selling a lot of Starter Sets and Essentials Kits through mass market stores like WalMart and Target. Short story is that Starter Set was old enough that both outlets were talking about no longer carrying. We didn't want to lose the shelf space so we agreed to produce a new version of the Starter Set. We were planning a more ambitious starter product to follow the new core books, but that was still several years away and there was no time to wait.

With the new core books, the plan was first to focus on driving adoption by existing fans in their debut year, then to push harder for new fans--with the new, more ambitious starter product--thereafter.

 

[dave2008]

It's been gone over a lot here in the past. But in short, the essence of horror is a sense of powerlessness. You have to cut so much away from 5E to accomplish that, you're basically playing a new game at that point. You're better off, IMO, just going with a system designed around delivering that experience, of which there are plenty of good choices.

Ok, I disagree with that. If powerless is the goal that is incredibly easy to do in D&D and in 5e in particular. I can do it with no rule changes, but if you are going for a Cthulhu style horror I would make two simple changes to start: death at 0 and no magic using classes.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Ok, I disagree with that. If powerless is the goal that is incredibly easy to do in D&D and in 5e in particular. I can do it with no rule changes, but if you are going for a Cthulhu style horror I would make two simple changes to start: death at 0 and no magic using classes.

Why would this be preferable to playing Call of Cthulhu?

 

[darjr]

We were selling a lot of Starter Sets and Essentials Kits through mass market stores like WalMart and Target. Short story is that Starter Set was old enough that both outlets were talking about no longer carrying. We didn't want to lose the shelf space so we agreed to produce a new version of the Starter Set. We were planning a more ambitious starter product to follow the new core books, but that was still several years away and there was no time to wait.

With the new core books, the plan was first to focus on driving adoption by existing fans in their debut year, then to push harder for new fans--with the new, more ambitious starter product--thereafter.

Oh, yea I remember hearing something about target wanting a new set.

 

[Spellslinging Sellsword]

They did execute the release on the 50th year. So I am not sure what you are talking about.

It's now 2025 and they haven't released the Monster Manual. So they didn't even get the core 3 books out in the 50th year. And that's the bare minimum.

 

[Alphastream]

Personally, I'm team D&D 2024. I'm loving the refresh so far. However, I'm also on Team WotC in the sense that I don't see the 2024 rules as moving a great distance from the 2014 rules. They are the same game. Folks acting like the new rules are a "6th Edition" in the sense that it is a major shift . . . I just don't get it.

How is the community at large perceiving the distance? No idea. I see a lot of confusion from publishers doing 5E crowdfunding campaigns . . . I see a lot of sturm-and-drang here on the message boards . . . but little of that really translates into how the larger D&D community is perceiving the new rules. I think there is an impact, but likely not a huge one.

I organize D&D at two large Seattle conventions, PAX and ECCC. As I've shared on my blog, the number of people interested in D&D is enormous. And a lot of them this past August had heard of '24 and were super excited about it. We had a pre-release copy of the PH and people were texting their friends pictures, wanted to hold it, etc. Out of many many hundreds of people I spoke to, exactly one person was negative on '24. Similarly, at ECCC earlier in the year, exactly two people were negative on D&D overall. (We helped them find one of the areas running other RPGs. I love all kinds of RPGs.)