D&D General Ray Winninger on 5e’s success, product cadence, the OGL, and more.

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Stan!, a longtime employee and contractor for TSR and Wizards of the Coast has an amazing YouTube interview shoe he’s been running talking to many luminaries who worked at TSR and WOTC. You can find the playlist here. Thanks to @MerricB for pointing it out!

He had a recent interview with Ray Winninger, who led the D&D team from 2020 to 2022.


The meat of his insights into D&D, WOTC, and Hasbro begins around the 50 minute mark.

Here are some things I grabbed from it:

  • The reason there were so few products during the early days of 5e wasn’t a strategy but a simple matter of having a small team unable to release more than they did. (Mike Mearls says this is incorrect in this post)
  • Because of this, sales of older products did better than the sale of newer products, which was an inverse of how it normally worked (new products typically outsold older products).
  • Ray brought up that the big change in demographics – a large increase of women gamers – increased the overall pool. It wasn’t like less men played but now the demographics changed.
  • As D&D got more popular, other parts of the company started to pay attention it but they wanted to treat it like every other product.
  • The OGL discussions had happened much earlier than when they actually tried to implement it. Ray, as we saw from his public statements on it, was clearly against it.
  • According to him, when he left, over 50% of players were using D&D Beyond regularly for character creation.
  • Ray looked at the stuff in A5e and thought it was really cool. He sees that sort of work as a real value of the OGL to let other publishers make stuff WOTC can’t or won’t make.
  • Ray says that RPG publishers need to be looking at digital play — how to play online, character builders, and the like.
  • He talks about the product dependency of putting out a big product like Spelljammer and then putting out smaller related products that sell much less because they’re dependent on those who bought the first one.

A few times on EN World I’ve seen people asking for both more products per year from WOTC and deeper catalogs around one world, like a bunch of Eberron products or a bunch of Spelljammer products. I think Ray clarifies the difficulty with those ideas when it comes from WOTC’s business. My feeling is that we’re better served looking for more products and deeper products from other publishers who can focus and make a business on these types of products.

If you pick up other insights or if you found similar interesting insights from this interview or Stan!’s other interviews, let’s share them! I think there’s a real wealth of knowledge in these videos.
 
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Thanks for summarizing that.
A few times on EN World I’ve seen people asking for both more products per year from WOTC and deeper catalogs around one world, like a bunch of Eberron products or a bunch of Spelljammer products. I think Ray clarifies the difficulty with those ideas when it comes from WOTC’s business. My feeling is that we’re better served looking for more products and deeper products from other publishers who can focus and make a business on these types of products.
Obviously, this is why the DMsGuild exists, and it seems to serve its purpose well.

I would love a deep dive into the Guild business model, its success, and why it has shifted and changed over the years.
 

Thanks for summarizing that.

Obviously, this is why the DMsGuild exists, and it seems to serve its purpose well.

I would love a deep dive into the Guild business model, its success, and why it has shifted and changed over the years.
He brought up the DMs Guild as the way to build those deep catalog products. He didn’t talk about the fundamental business model problem of the Guild, though — that an exclusive perpetual license and a 50% revenue split means it’s very hard for a Guild creator to make enough revenue to make anything other than a hobby project without losing money. Yes, there are exceptions, but they are just that — exceptions.
 



Stan!, a longtime employee and contractor for TSR and Wizards of the Coast has an amazing YouTube interview shoe he’s been running talking to many luminaries who worked at TSR and WOTC. You can find the playlist here.

He had a recent interview with Ray Winninger, who led the D&D team from 2020 to 2022.


The meat of his insights into D&D, WOTC, and Hasbro begins around the 50 minute mark.

Here are some things I grabbed from it:

  • The reason there were so few products during the early days of 5e wasn’t a strategy but a simple matter of having a small team unable to release more than they did.
  • Because of this, sales of older products did better than the sale of newer products, which was an inverse of how it normally worked (new products typically outsold older products).
  • Ray brought up that the big change in demographics – a large increase of women gamers – increased the overall pool. It wasn’t like less men played but now the demographics changed.
  • As D&D got more popular, other parts of the company started to pay attention it but they wanted to treat it like every other product.
  • The OGL discussions had happened much earlier than when they actually tried to implement it. Ray, as we saw from his public statements on it, was clearly against it.
  • According to him, when he left, over 50% of players were using D&D Beyond regularly for character creation.
  • Ray looked at the stuff in A5e and thought it was really cool. He sees that sort of work as a real value of the OGL to let other publishers make stuff WOTC can’t or won’t make.
  • Ray says that RPG publishers need to be looking at digital play — how to play online, character builders, and the like.
  • He talks about the product dependency of putting out a big product like Spelljammer and then putting out smaller related products that sell much less because they’re dependent on those who bought the first one.

A few times on EN World I’ve seen people asking for both more products per year from WOTC and deeper catalogs around one world, like a bunch of Eberron products or a bunch of Spelljammer products. I think Ray clarifies the difficulty with those ideas when it comes from WOTC’s business. My feeling is that we’re better served looking for more products and deeper products from other publishers who can focus and make a business on these types of products.

If you pick up other insights or if you found similar interesting insights from this interview or Stan!’s other interviews, let’s share them! I think there’s a real wealth of knowledge in these videos.
Thank you so much for this.

I agree with your analysis about deeper products coming from 3PP. 3PP is, IMO, the real meat & potatoes of the D&D scene; we are where most of the innovation happens both in mechanically and in terms of what fantasies are being portrayed. That's because all of the indie sphere is essentially vanity projects, some of which make it big.

I think WotC could do a bit better by releasing a setting book like Rising From the Last War alongside either an anthrology book based or 1-10 campaign released with the setting, complete with an adventure generator. That last point, the adventure generator, is something I don't think they've figured out yet but would be a gamechanger IMO for their books. I think overall this model incentivizes people to buy both books while also providing deeper support to the system then they do now.

Another avenue could be found in DND Beyond and DMs Guild combining a bit. Encourage and let people use Kickstarter to fund DMs Guild projects, then take the ones for settings that are popular or very high quality and host them on DND Beyond. Stuff like that book about the 9 Hells that was written a year or two ago, same dudes who made a Baldur's Gate setting guide on DMs Guild too. This model would off-source the work to the indie sphere, reward them for their work, and give customers who want to dive deeper into a setting more options.
 




Another avenue could be found in DND Beyond and DMs Guild combining a bit. Encourage and let people use Kickstarter to fund DMs Guild projects, then take the ones for settings that are popular or very high quality and host them on DND Beyond. Stuff like that book about the 9 Hells that was written a year or two ago, same dudes who made a Baldur's Gate setting guide on DMs Guild too. This model would off-source the work to the indie sphere, reward them for their work, and give customers who want to dive deeper into a setting more options.
I wonder if something about the contractual arrangement between WotC and OBS makes this harder than it should be. I mean, it's 🦇💩 crazy that the Keith Baker's Eberron books aren't on DND Beyond.
 

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