The D&D 4th edition Rennaissaince: A look into the history of the edition, its flaws and its merits

[Joshua Randall]

[4e] is literally the only one [version of D&D] which works smoothly at those "Epic" levels.

Amen, brother!

Epic tier 4e play is the most fun I've ever had with any edition of D&D since 1982.

It is in the top 3 of most fun I've ever had with any RPG, period.

Now. Of course that is my opinion. (An opinion shared by some number of people who participated alongside me and no, I have no idea that number and no, I don't care.)

I fully recognize that style of play is not fun for EVERYONE. Because, of course, how could ANYTHING be fun for EVERYONE? And also because it's a very particular style, not one that is broadly applicable.

But still:

Epic tier 4e play is the most fun I've ever had with any edition of D&D since 1982.

All that I/we ask is that we be allowed to enjoy our own fun without the need to justify it to someone else, and without gratuitous insults towards our preferred edition.

 

[Joshua Randall]

I will be the first to say that I have issues with Ben Riggs

"Issues" is doing a lot of heavy lifting there.

But Peterson? He always bring the receipts, and lets you judge for yourself. [...]

If you only read PATW when it came out

Fair enough. I'll give Peterson another chance. What do you recommend that's not PATW?

 

[Zardnaar]

Epic tier 4e play is the most fun I've ever had with any edition of D&D since 1982.

It is in the top 3 of most fun I've ever had with any RPG, period.

Now. Of course that is my opinion. (An opinion shared by some number of people who participated alongside me and no, I have no idea that number and no, I don't care.)

I full recognize that style of play is not fun for EVERYONE. Because, of course, how could ANYTHING be fun for EVERYONE? And also because it's a very particular style, not one that is broadly applicable.

But still:

Epic tier 4e play is the most fun I've ever had with any edition of D&D since 1982.

All that I/we ask is that we be allowed to enjoy our own fun without the need to justify it to someone else, and without gratuitous insults towards our preferred edition.

You can still play those levels no obes taken them away.

Several of us at ENworld gave our own honebrews. More are published authors.

Main point is if you want a clone or successor sone9ne gas to write it.

Since it hasn't really happened yet it might have to be you. OSR fans do it as well.

If we want sonething we produce it.

Seems you heed to produce sonething ir stick with 4E. Epic levels are just a number in your head. Sone editions have gone to 36, others 45, others uncapped.

Less levels is easier to produce for is the main point.

 

[Joshua Randall]

he is careful and consistent and relies on source documents

Scary thought:

History about the Internet age is going to be a nightmare. Many discussions were had in random Discord servers somewhere that no longer exist, maybe a Google plus conversation... decisions were made on voice-chats over some platform that is dead and besides the recording wasn't started until 20 minutes into the 30 minute conversation.... etc.

 

[Joshua Randall]

Several of us at ENworld gave our own honebrews. More are published authors.

Good for you? This appeal to authority has zero heft with me.

Epic levels are just a number in your head.

No, they're not. The game plays fundamentally differently at Epic tier and if you can't see that, I don't know what to tell you.

 

[Zardnaar]

Good for you? This appeal to authority has zero heft with me.



No, they're not. The game plays fundamentally differently at Epic tier and if you can't see that, I don't know what to tell you.

I'm saying you coukd naje Epic level 11-15. You woukd be using the same powers, sane playstyle. Monsters get scared down in termsvof AC so youre hitting them the sane amount. Their hit points could also stay the same. Or the powers get changed in terms of damage monster hp comes down.

Monster still dies in same number of hits. Powers work the same etc.

 

[Tigris]

But Peterson? He always bring the receipts, and lets you judge for yourself. Sometimes, he can be too subtle- I had a conversation with another forum member after Game Wizards where the other person didn't realize that Gygax lied on the stand during the litigation after his ouster ... because Peterson didn't actually say that. Instead, he just pointed out that the judge didn't find his testimony credible (and the reasons why) which, yeah.

I only ever saw this from him: D&D 4E - The D&D 4th edition Rennaissaince: A look into the history of the edition, its flaws and its merits


But honestly that was enough to never take anything serious that guy will say or ever said.


Not only was it extremly disrespectfull towards the people he interviewed, it also showed lack of understanding of game design and lack of research.


As others said one can only make 1 first impression and this first impression was one of someone who should never be allowed to write books about D&D

 

[Mannahnin]

Fair enough. I'll give Peterson another chance. What do you recommend that's not PATW?

Game Wizards and The Elusive Shift are both excellent. His prose got better.

I'm saying you coukd naje Epic level 11-15. You woukd be using the same powers, sane playstyle.

How many campaigns of 4E have you played in above level 20?

 

[Tigris]

If it makes you feel better I have said D&Ds probably better off as a 10 level game. Hell 13th Age did that. 4E going to 30 would be level 15.

13th age has MID LEVEL progression. splitting the 9 levels gained up into 4 sublevels. In one you gain a feat, in 1 you gain an ability in 1 you gain hp progression and in the last you gain everything else. The progression also is 2 times as steap as 4E and HP and damage gain per level is way more extreme to allow that.


(this is quite similar to 4E which has on odd levels new attacks and on even levels new feats).


So 13th age is mechanically more like 30 levels than 10.


People LOVE having progression. This is LITERALLY what is known as "rpg mechanic" outside the small rpg scene. So having 29 level ups is just something people enjoy. Thats why most modern games have this in there.


Also 4E has 3 finely defined levels of play. Each 10 levels each just feels elegant.

 

[Mannahnin]

I only ever saw this from him: D&D 4E - The D&D 4th edition Rennaissaince: A look into the history of the edition, its flaws and its merits


But honestly that was enough to never take anything serious that guy will say or ever said.


Not only was it extremly disrespectfull towards the people he interviewed, it also showed lack of understanding of game design and lack of research.


As others said one can only make 1 first impression and this first impression was one of someone who should never be allowed to write books about D&D

I don't know what Jon was thinking there, but I've seen several hours of his interviews and read literally thousands of pages of his nonfiction prose at this point, and he is IMO the best D&D historian writing today. (Some folks may prefer Applecline, I suppose, but Peterson's books are the gold standard). That mistake was absolutely not representative.

Edit: I don't think Jon actually did what Tigris was accusing him of:

Post in thread 'The D&D 4th edition Rennaissaince: A look into the history of the edition, its flaws and its merits'

Jan 28, 2025

EDIT: Minute 1:40 he says that the streams where the game were played happened all up to 5th before (which was the other video I posted for 4E). So the stream of 4E did happen before this. The panel on 3rd edition the day before was a similar interview. So I mixed up a bit the order of when the game streams happened and when the interviews, but the 4E gamestream happened before this interview.

Ok, I re-listened and yes, I was mistaken. This is a GenCon panel on 4E, the 3E panel was the day before, and the play sessions were in the weeks leading up to GenCon. So yes, the designers...

• Mannahnin