D&D General Ray Winninger on 5e’s success, product cadence, the OGL, and more.

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Right, so it's possible with the right DM, the right players, narrow bands of play and often some modified rules.

Alternately, one could just play a horror RPG that doesn't require having all the stars align to make the experience work.

D&D is really good at delivering a heroic fantasy experience. It's not a criticism that it's not as good at other genres as games designed around those genres are.
Core D&D is not a horror game, but certainly has horror elements in it, including classic horror monsters and a heavy dose of Cthulhu mythos inspiration.

I see it as trivially easy to shift from a more standard heroic mode of play to a horror mode. I don't really feel modifying the rules is necessary, but certainly can be done. It's easier at lower levels, but totes possible at higher levels also.

Why don't I simply play Call of Cthulhu? Because I don't want to? CoC is a very specific game style for a specific genre of horror, and it's a great game, but not one I'm overly interested in. If I really wanted to play a fantasy horror campaign, I probably would use D&D and modify the rules a bit . . . and my players would more likely go for that than me trying to get them into a different game.

Of course, I've got no issue with folks who don't feel D&D does horror well, even if I disagree. If you can convince your group to play CoC and everyone is having a horrifying time of it, then that's the way to go!
 

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My original concept was to name Monsters of the Multiverse the fourth core book, revise the PHB in 2023, the DMG in 2024, the MM in 2025, and MotM in 2026. In 2027, we'd revise the PHB yet again. In other words, going forward, we would release a revised core book each year, and each core book would be refreshed every four years.
To bad, I really like this idea.
 


For me lots of reasons, but for others perhaps nothing. But that wasn't the question. The question was can it (D&D) work as horror game. And my answer is yes, easily.
You can also house rule that paladins have to take 15 feet of movement forward and 5 feet horizontally, but at a certain point, you're better off just playing chess.

Yes, you can definitely stand on one foot, do a bunch of house rules and play in very specific modes to do D&D in all sorts of genres it doesn't naturally support.

Unless you're trying to win a bet, though, it seems like a lot of work to avoid just using a ruleset like the Alien RPG that has rules that make horror come much more naturally at the table.

In any case, this is why I didn't elaborate before. If you are determined to use one tool for all jobs, I have no interest in stopping you.
 

You can also house rule that paladins have to take 15 feet of movement forward and 5 feet horizontally, but at a certain point, you're better off just playing chess.

Yes, you can definitely stand on one foot, do a bunch of house rules and play in very specific modes to do D&D in all sorts of genres it doesn't naturally support.

Unless you're trying to win a bet, though, it seems like a lot of work to avoid just using a ruleset like the Alien RPG that has rules that make horror come much more naturally at the table.

In any case, this is why I didn't elaborate before. If you are determined to use one tool for all jobs, I have no interest in stopping you.
Hyperbole much?

Clearly, we don't have the same experiences or opinions. But mocking others who disagree with your wisdom . . . well, it really doesn't move the conversation forward in a positive way.
 

Mike, in your experience, how long does it take for that gap to be bridged? My (completely amateur) take on it has been that it takes roughly two years until we get a clear picture of how things shook out. Does that sound right to you?
We'll know sooner, because we'll see it based on how Wizards acts and what we see from the quarterly results calls.

They just added two more products to the schedule for '25, bringing them up to six products and hitting a product per month from July onward. I have consistently heard and observed that backlist sales have plunged. I think (but don't know, yet) that the audience and retailers are treating 5.5 as a new edition. They probably need to get product out as quickly as possible to refill the backlist and boost their overall sales.

There's some very juicy industry gossip going around about how Kickstarter customers react when you tell them that they product they backed a year or two ago is designed for 5.5. I have heard that some projects are forced to offer 5.5 and 5e books, with the split looking pretty close to 50/50 among backers. That very much sounds like folks are treating it as a new edition. It's also a really bad sign, as those are people spending money on 5e content. I'd expect something a lot closer to 80/20 in favor of the new edition if uptake was strong.

The underlying danger is that they might have flipped the business into a front-list driven one, which hurts their profitability and requires a steadily inflating overhead. It's also interesting that their timeline for UA tests has been pushed even narrower. They're testing material at a point where they can't make meaningful, informed decisions. Were I in their shoes, I'd junk the program. It's probably transforming into a liability.

The risk is that hitting the gas leads to lower quality, which leads to lower sales, which leads to no long tail, which puts more pressure on the front list, which leads to more products, which leads to lower quality, etc.

(As an aside: Public playtests are great for picking from one option among many. The 5e playtest was primarily an exercise in market research. We really had nothing set in stone until we received feedback, then pivoted as we went. The UAs for Xanathar's allowed us to pluck the best subclasses from a large pile of design. Most of them ended up on the cutting room floor.

In contrast, the ship rules from Ghosts of Saltmarsh were going to be published no matter what. The ratings were high, but the end result wasn't great. For Ghosts, it would have been much better to test two systems with radically different takes on the concept, and let the audience tells us which one they preferred.)

For the quarterly results call in February, based on what WotC has said publicly D&D results should feature prominently as a big win. To show year over year results, they'll compare two core rulebooks against the Phandelver book (Amazon rank and reviews show that it sold poorly) and the Deck of Many Things product, which they had to recall and reprint. Those are very favorable comps. I think they could show some crazy growth year over year, 100% growth or more in tabletop sales.

A lot of analysis comes down to remembering what someone said in September, then checking that against what they say in March. That's the best way to track how things are changing behind the scenes. Especially at a place like Hasbro and that 3 BILLION dollar debt hanging over them, they're going to be under massive pressure to deliver high margin products.
 

If they hit, it then means you need to figure out if you want to hitch your wagon to something that isn't growing. If it's not, IMO it's better to go with something of your own.

I think that ties strongly to how you are defining the movement vector and if the percentage of the existing base you hope to engage with would translate to a large enough set of sales to support the efforts to establish your product line vs how much you might get running in a solo space or hitching to a different open-ish rules base.

Some of it is just timing. There's no way the 5e growth would last without a steady (even if very small) supply of new sources. It had to level off at some point.
 

Hyperbole much?
Not really, no.

Even a mild statement about "hey, maybe D&D isn't the best system to play Star Trek or superheroes or gritty noir detectives" will get the same handful of people crashing through the wall like Kool-Aid Man to proclaim that they played a 20 year game of Star Wars using the AD&D Players Handbook and that it's insulting to suggest someone actually just use a Star Trek RPG instead.

I was specifically asked about my opinion, which naturally inflamed a bunch of you, which is a you issue, not a me issue.
Clearly, we don't have the same experiences or opinions. But mocking others who disagree with your wisdom . . . well, it really doesn't move the conversation forward in a positive way.
There is no positive way to move this conversation with you and the handful of folks like you. People suggesting playing games other than officially branded Dungeons & Dragons in any space where you might come across the post triggers a bunch of people who are apparently incapable of not starting an argument about it every single time.

You're capable of having good conversations on other topics so long as no one mentions Traveller or Monopoly or Tic-Tac-Toe in your presence, which is why I haven't ignored the three or four of you who insist on behaving this way, but your determination to start fights about this every time makes me wonder if maybe just slapping you all on ignore is the right way to go.
 

We'll know sooner, because we'll see it based on how Wizards acts and what we see from the quarterly results calls.

They just added two more products to the schedule for '25, bringing them up to six products and hitting a product per month from July onward. I have consistently heard and observed that backlist sales have plunged. I think (but don't know, yet) that the audience and retailers are treating 5.5 as a new edition. They probably need to get product out as quickly as possible to refill the backlist and boost their overall sales.

There's some very juicy industry gossip going around about how Kickstarter customers react when you tell them that they product they backed a year or two ago is designed for 5.5. I have heard that some projects are forced to offer 5.5 and 5e books, with the split looking pretty close to 50/50 among backers. That very much sounds like folks are treating it as a new edition. It's also a really bad sign, as those are people spending money on 5e content. I'd expect something a lot closer to 80/20 in favor of the new edition if uptake was strong.

The underlying danger is that they might have flipped the business into a front-list driven one, which hurts their profitability and requires a steadily inflating overhead. It's also interesting that their timeline for UA tests has been pushed even narrower. They're testing material at a point where they can't make meaningful, informed decisions. Were I in their shoes, I'd junk the program. It's probably transforming into a liability.

The risk is that hitting the gas leads to lower quality, which leads to lower sales, which leads to no long tail, which puts more pressure on the front list, which leads to more products, which leads to lower quality, etc.

(As an aside: Public playtests are great for picking from one option among many. The 5e playtest was primarily an exercise in market research. We really had nothing set in stone until we received feedback, then pivoted as we went. The UAs for Xanathar's allowed us to pluck the best subclasses from a large pile of design. Most of them ended up on the cutting room floor.

In contrast, the ship rules from Ghosts of Saltmarsh were going to be published no matter what. The ratings were high, but the end result wasn't great. For Ghosts, it would have been much better to test two systems with radically different takes on the concept, and let the audience tells us which one they preferred.)

For the quarterly results call in February, based on what WotC has said publicly D&D results should feature prominently as a big win. To show year over year results, they'll compare two core rulebooks against the Phandelver book (Amazon rank and reviews show that it sold poorly) and the Deck of Many Things product, which they had to recall and reprint. Those are very favorable comps. I think they could show some crazy growth year over year, 100% growth or more in tabletop sales.

A lot of analysis comes down to remembering what someone said in September, then checking that against what they say in March. That's the best way to track how things are changing behind the scenes. Especially at a place like Hasbro and that 3 BILLION dollar debt hanging over them, they're going to be under massive pressure to deliver high margin products.

My theory is 5.5 doesn't have to outsell 5E. It just has to outsell 5E final few years.

I expect high initial sales then see what the data is saying.
 

Why? You just want to be on a constant cycle of refresh?

I mean thats one aspect of GW's success, they roll out a refresh/new edition of a core game (AoS, 40K, HH, TOW(?)) every year, and while its great for the corporate bottom line, the treadmill is terrible for the players wallet, and IMO game design.
You're talking every year, Ray was suggesting 1 new core book each year out of 4 books considered to be core so you at worst would be buying a revised version of a single book every 4 years. I don't think that's a bad idea for a version of a game that has lasted a decade. In fact I think it could be a good thing if it allows designers a chance to fix things that after 3 years of play have been found to maybe not be the best idea ever.
 

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