D&D General Reification versus ludification in 5E/6E

[pawsplay]

If someone wanted to get the abilities of another type of wizard, I would probably write up some feats that let them do that in a limited way, just like you can pick up Magic Initiate, Battle Master maneuvers, etc. If the question is no larger than, "how can my character do this?" I think that would work fine as an solution.

 

[Teemu]

Logically, you could. In this case you are up against a bit of reification: those are class features, and you can't multiclass between subclasses in the same class. The fighter can, by taking levels in wizards.

If I had chosen to be an evoker, I could. It's up to me, and I would be cool with allowing stuff like that in my game anyway.

If someone wanted to get the abilities of another type of wizard, I would probably write up some feats that let them do that in a limited way, just like you can pick up Magic Initiate, Battle Master maneuvers, etc. If the question is no larger than, "how can my character do this?" I think that would work fine as an solution.

So can the fighter also learn both the evoker and the abjurer subclass features? What about necromancer and diviner as well? After all, people in the world learn those abilities, so you should be able to acquire them, right? What if you're an elf and you live for 600 years -- could you learn all classes and their subclass abilities? After all, people can learn those abilities, right? So logically you should be able to learn them yourself as well, especially if you have several centuries of time.

Why would you have to replace current abilities? If the logic is that because the abilities can be learned by people in the world, everyone should be able to learn them with enough effort, correct? So why would the wizard have to replace any subclass abilities? Couldn't they just add more and more abilities, abilities which people in the world learn all the time?

Why would they have to settle for partial abilities through feats? Why can't my character learn the full ability and not a weaker version if I spend enough time?

 

[Micah Sweet]

So can the fighter also learn both the evoker and the abjurer subclass features? What about necromancer and diviner as well? After all, people in the world learn those abilities, so you should be able to acquire them, right? What if you're an elf and you live for 600 years -- could you learn all classes and their subclass abilities? After all, people can learn those abilities, right? So logically you should be able to learn them yourself as well, especially if you have several centuries of time.

Why would you have to replace current abilities? If the logic is that because the abilities can be learned by people in the world, everyone should be able to learn them with enough effort, correct? So why would the wizard have to replace any subclass abilities? Couldn't they just add more and more abilities, abilities which people in the world learn all the time?

Why would they have to settle for partial abilities through feats? Why can't my character learn the full ability and not a weaker version if I spend enough time?

Yes, they could given opportunity and time. Yes to all of it.

 

[Teemu]

Yes, they could given opportunity and time. Yes to all of it.

Why did you just earlier say that yes, but you would have to replace your current ability?

If you can indeed learn all of it, do long lived creatures in your D&D style campaign worlds learn all of that? So some elves for example would have abilities from all classes, possibly all subclass abilities and so on? Can sapient immortal creatures like vampires learn all possible abilities? For example a vampire who is 2,500 years old -- that's plenty of time to learn level 20 in all classes or the abilities of a level 20 character, since a PC can reach level 20 in just a few years for example.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Why did you just earlier say that yes, but you would have to replace your current ability?

If you can indeed learn all of it, do long lived creatures in your D&D style campaign worlds learn all of that? So some elves for example would have abilities from all classes, possibly all subclass abilities and so on? Can sapient immortal creatures like vampires learn all possible abilities? For example a vampire who is 2,500 years old -- that's plenty of time to learn level 20 in all classes or the abilities of a level 20 character, since a PC can reach level 20 in just a few years for example.

In my very first post in this thread, I clearly stated that there are allowances for ludification I will make, but my preference is to minimize such things. Sometimes you have to compromise to make the game work. Doesn't mean you have to make a habit out of it.

 

[Maxperson]

Half-editions aren't a thing. They are versions of the same edition or they are a new edition. 3.5 is either part of 3e OR it's really 4e. I can't make that any clearer.

They are a thing, because differentiation is necessary. I read the 5e PHB. Was I referring there to the 2014 or 2024 version?

 

[Maxperson]

You could make it as a character, but what you posted was a creature--not a PC.


That's kind of my point. You play the character as you wanted to play them. You didn't need mechanical support. (Well, maybe you did? I didn't).

Then your concept was never realized if it was something that involved becoming the best archer in the world. Let's say you didn't want ranger abilities and wanted to be a fighter.

In BECMI, 1e and 2e, you were ask good at 1st level with a bow as any other level 1 fighter in the world with your dex. At 20th level you weren't any better than any other 20th level fighter, nor were you better with a bow than a dagger(assuming you had dagger proficiency). You never got better with a bow.

In 3e there were tons of archery related feats to take, that took a bunch of levels to gather together. You improved over time. Then I could move into Order of the Bow Initiate and gain even more bow improvements for the next 10 levels.

I could realize my version of that concept. You had to pretend you got any better at all than all the other fighters out there. Mechanical support allows you to actually realize the concept, not just pretend that you did.

 

[Maxperson]

How do races come into play when discussing which traits generic NPC stat blocks have?

Why does the 2014 Archmage have Magic Resistance? Where does it come from? Why does it have damage resistance against damage from spells?

Archmange class ability.

Why does the 2014 Assassin have proficiency in Dex and Int saves? Why is it proficient in shortswords and light crossbows?

Rogues have int and dex as saves.

Why does the 2014 Knight have the Leadership action? Why can it take a Parry reaction to increase its AC by 2? Some other NPCs have a Parry reaction that increases their AC by 3.

Knight class ability.

Why does the 2014 Priest have the Divine Eminence bonus action?

Where's that coming from?

Priest class ability.

Can PCs learn that? If so, how? Where is it detailed as a player option?

I don't see why not? You'd likely have to become a priest, but I'd work with a player who wanted to multiclass into one or start in the priest class.

Many 2014 NPCs have Multiattack. Can PCs learn Multiattack in place of Extra Attack? If so, how? Where is it detailed as a player option?

Same as above.

The 2014 Scout has Multiattack but only 3 HD. Can a PC with 3 HD learn Multiattack as well if they train with a Scout NPC?

At the third level of the scout class? Sure.

 

[Maxperson]

Great questions that IMO should have answers.

And by the way those issues bothered me long before 5.5 was released.

Some of us allow PCs to try and gain those abilities, because they should be able to. The wide, wide world has many classes and subclasses outside of what WotC has chosen to give us. NPCs have them, so PCs should be able to learn them.

 

[Stormonu]

Why did you just earlier say that yes, but you would have to replace your current ability?

If you can indeed learn all of it, do long lived creatures in your D&D style campaign worlds learn all of that? So some elves for example would have abilities from all classes, possibly all subclass abilities and so on? Can sapient immortal creatures like vampires learn all possible abilities? For example a vampire who is 2,500 years old -- that's plenty of time to learn level 20 in all classes or the abilities of a level 20 character, since a PC can reach level 20 in just a few years for example.

On ancient elves, dwarves, vampires and the like.

I've come to realize that the older you get, the more you forget. I am fine with a few-hundred year old elf only able (or more likely, willing) to remember the most recent past couple of score years, let alone decades and how I handle it in my homebrew. Sure, they may have gone through all the classes by the time their 1,200 years old - but they may only remember the wizard and fighter class because that's what they're still doing and their skills at the other things have atrophied from non-use.

The RPG 10,000 year old vampire deals with sort of subject as its premise - as you add memories, you forget others.